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Dmill vs. adp, post a pic

Was implantable bupe FDA approved based on a single study in Russia where the control group was a placebo and most of the patients had AIDS/Hep C? Giving addicts a potent liver damaging chemical in conjunction with therapy was more effective than NOTHING with therapy!
 
Funny how opiate addicts need all these "treatments."

FDA Ad Com voted to approve implantable bupe a few weeks ago. Think they plan to price under ADPs boyz injection.

Good thing we are still fighting the war on drugs. Been a real success.
Yep, which is why Vivitrol is such a breakthrough. Unlike bupe, it's not an opioid and actually gets people off Rx treatment all together. It's an opioid blocker that shuts down the receptors so you cannot get high. Combined with counseling you get clean and hopefully don't have to take anything ever again. What we are doing is trying to change how you treat opioid addiction. That's exactly what what we're working on. Treat it like a disease, like cancer. Don't just keep giving addicts opioids and stepping them down.
 
Yep, which is why Vivitrol is such a breakthrough. Unlike bupe, it's not an opioid and actually gets people off Rx treatment all together. It's an opioid blocker that shuts down the receptors so you cannot get high. Combined with counseling you get clean and hopefully don't have to take anything ever again. What we are doing is trying to change how you treat opioid addiction. That's exactly what what we're working on. Treat it like a disease, like cancer. Don't just keep giving addicts opioids and stepping them down.
Oh, in that case, I will take your word for it. Instead of actual properly conducted clinical experiments, you know the kind that speaks for itself and doesn't need lobbyists to massage it's message and promote it.
 
Right, because lobbyists and Congress are in charge of approving drugs. If you are going to troll at least do so with some sense of how the system works. I understand you're just playing your role but it gets a little old. Have a good weekend.
 
Oh , and like congress, with no rules applying to them for things like insider trading, never buy stock in a pharma company prior to them getting some new wonder drug approved, and would never have any influence over the FDA in any way. And drug companies, throwing around 700m in lobbying, don't influence anyone. Never happens. At least if you are going to complain about trolling, make sure the troll is actually a troll.
 
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When you say breakthrough.. you mean a reformulation of a drug approved in 1984?

Yes, long acting injectible formulation is significant when dealing with addiction. And the drug was around for alcohol and no one used it and big pharma walked away from it. I encourage you guys to read up a bit more if you are truly interested. What this company is doing is amazing work. They aren't big pharmacy printing money off addiction. They are trying to change the way the disease is treated. However l, that doesn't fit the narrative we need to create.
 
Yes, long acting injectible formulation is significant when dealing with addiction. And the drug was around for alcohol and no one used it and big pharma walked away from it. I encourage you guys to read up a bit more if you are truly interested. What this company is doing is amazing work. They aren't big pharmacy printing money off addiction. They are trying to change the way the disease is treated. However l, that doesn't fit the narrative we need to create.
I'm essentially a biopharma schill so have no business casting stones... but describing a long acting formulation of a drug discovered in the 70s and approved in the early 80s as a "breakthrough" with a supporting clinical program that not even SportsBoss would describe as robust is a bit of a stretch.

Where are the controlled studies comparing the injection to orals if its such a game changer? or comparing orals, injections and the implants? Yes in a single trial (in russia) the long acting injection did better than placebo but is that enough to call it a breakthrough? I mean its one thing to drink the kool aid when you are in meetings with pharmabros (i do it all the time) its another to proselytize on a message board.
 
If you don't see the difference in giving a drug addict a shot once a month that literally turns off their opioid receptors to taking a daily pill we will never agree. The problem with drug addicts is they aren't great at maintaining discipline to treatment. This is the only non opioid that you can take after detoxing, so you have patients who are actually trying and this product is life saving for those people. You have an entire opioid distribution system created by the gov and docs who make hundreds of thousands per year to keep their patients on opioid for the rest of their lives. What we are doing is trying to pass a simple requirement that forces docs to offer all available treatments. Patients should have the rite to make an informed decision on what is available. Just like you would if you had any other disease. A doc gives you treatment options. For addiction, they give you more opioid and step you down but keep you on them forever. Today the economic model wants the patients coming back forever to pay their 200 every month to the doc to write the script. It's sick that is what we do. I an absolutely proud to be part of a group trying to give patients options. We aren't even looking for reimbursement or gov to pay. Give patients the knowledge is make an informed decision on treatment. You guys are uniformed on addiction treatment. As for casting stones on a message board, that's me here? Interesting how we arrive at that conclusion. Why I take the time to explain is on me because no one cares or will take the effort to learn anything beyond a Google search. How we handle this real issue is criminal and we just got our bill through the house and hope to get it to POTUS this year. When that happens I will be darn proud and know we did something really good that will help people. Throw stones, push your narrative, whatever you need to get a rise in life. We're going to get this done and actually do something to give people options to become opioid free. Thats pretty cool and why I love my job.
 
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Forcing doctors to promote products! Yikes! Pharma lobbyists know what's best for patients better than their docs.

Was the study presented to the FDA done on AIDS/Hep C Russians because bute is tightly controlled in Eastern Europe and they could claim that they'd be "forced" to use a placebo as a control instead of other known effective in-use options. And if it really gets people "off" opioids long term, why do their studies stop tracking at 6 months?

How was the FDA massaged to accept a single flimsy study with a relatively low effective rate?

I like how you can just clumsily test Liver Punch drugs for decades on different conditions and hope that you luck out with positive trial resultsso that you can pass laws to force doctors to talk about your sketchy treatment.
 
Promoting products and informing patients on all available treents are the same thing?

The FDA does not approve a drug based on a single study done in Russia. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
 
Well we do know that the FDA lowers the bar for any drug that treat addiction. That's been fairly well known for a while, mostly because there aren't that many drugs that treat drug addiction. But the more you read about Vivitrol, the more it sounds at best a slight hit or full miss. Very few actually stop their addition, they seem to just take a little less. Small steps I suppose.

Can you provide a link of other studies that happened prior to approval. Result of this thing seem pretty uneven in any event. So we have a new methadone? Awesome!
 
Well we do know that the FDA lowers the bar for any drug that treat addiction. That's been fairly well known for a while, mostly because there aren't that many drugs that treat drug addiction. But the more you read about Vivitrol, the more it sounds at best a slight hit or full miss. Very few actually stop their addition, they seem to just take a little less. Small steps I suppose.

Can you provide a link of other studies that happened prior to approval. Result of this thing seem pretty uneven in any event. So we have a new methadone? Awesome!
Methadone is an opioid genius. You guys still don't get it.
 
Promoting products and informing patients on all available treents are the same thing?

The FDA does not approve a drug based on a single study done in Russia. If you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.
have you seen the label? we are talking about its use in opioid dependency right?

The lead author on the only efficacy trial in the patient population we are discussing wrote an editorial calling for studies comparing the different formulations and is not even close to as evangelical in his belief that the product is a game changer as you seem to be. The data is the data. Just because you say it is an enormous breakthrough doesn't make it so. Yes compliance and adherence is a major issue for the orals but addicts have figured out ways to break through on vivtriol as well...
Its great to have another option but its not the only answer and just because i think you may be overstating the impact of your client's drug doesn't mean im pro agonist or status quo.
 
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Back on topic...

fugitive-screenshot.jpg
 
have you seen the label? we are talking about its use in opioid dependency right?

The lead author on the only efficacy trial in the patient population we are discussing wrote an editorial calling for studies comparing the different formulations and is not even close to as evangelical in his belief that the product is a game changer as you seem to be. The data is the data. Just because you say it is an enormous breakthrough doesn't make it so. Yes compliance and adherence is a major issue for the orals but addicts have figured out ways to break through on vivtriol as well...
Its great to have another option but its not the only answer and just because i think you may be overstating the impact of your client's drug doesn't mean im pro agonist or status quo.
I am aware of all this. We are talking about drug addicts. Do you think every drug addict just gets cured? Curious to know how an addict "breaks through" a non opioid that bonds to the receptiors on your brain and turns them off? What happens is they stop the treatment and relapse. Which is part of the problem in this space and why giving them scripts to more opioid is not great when dealing with drug addicts. You feed the addiction and many times they take their bupe and sell it it get herion. So you now have even more opioid flooding the streets. You will never see a drug addict selling vivtrol because you can't do anythING with it. It's not an opioid and has no street value.
 
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Methadone is an opioid genius. You guys still don't get it.


Methadone is a drug that treats addiction. Vivitrol is a drug that treats addiction. Both have mixed results. Simple facts. If you pat yourself on the back because it's not an opioid, I'm happy if you're happy. But it takes ten seconds of reading to know this is not anything close to a game changer. Just isn't. Mostly because a lot of people can't decide if it actually does anything in a lot of cases.
 
Methadone is a drug that treats addiction. Vivitrol is a drug that treats addiction. Both have mixed results. Simple facts. If you pat yourself on the back because it's not an opioid, I'm happy if you're happy. But it takes ten seconds of reading to know this is not anything close to a game changer. Just isn't. Mostly because a lot of people can't decide if it actually does anything in a lot of cases.
You don't see the difference between giving opioid addicts opioids for the rest of their lives or getting them off opioids. Right, same thing. We are talking about drug addicts. There will never be a product that works every time. Vivitrol is the significant breakthrough. If you understand the addiction space in 10 seconds I applaud you because it's complicated stuff. You should quit your job in advertising and go help some people with addiction. Cap tip for the troll, you guys did wonderful work.
 
I am aware of all this. We are talking about drug addicts. Do you think every drug addict just gets cured? Curious to know how an addict "breaks through" a non opioid that bonds to the receptiors on your brain and turns them off? What happens is they stop the treatment and relapse. Which is part of the problem in this space and why giving them scripts to more opioid is not great when dealing with drug addicts. You feed the addiction and many times they take their bupe and sell it it get herion. So you now have even more opioid flooding the streets. You will never see a drug addict selling vivtrol because you can't do anythING with it. It's not an opioid and has no street value.
Yes I think every drug addict just gets cured... tremendous strawman in play there. And if you are aware of all of that and the lack of data, then why pretend like this is the answer to all things addiction? Plenty of research and experts think otherwise... there isn't even enough data to compare it to other drug mediated approaches yet you think this is the answer for all addicts? Why no comparative studies if its such an enormous breakthrough? The meta analysis of oral naltrexone showed it no better than placebo yet we cant see a single data set comparing vivitriol to an oral? Its great that it has no abuse potential, but that doesn't mean it automatically works better than everything else.
 
The goal is not just be better. The goal is also to give people an alternative so they don't have to be on opioids the rest of their lives and control opioid diversion. It's all part of it. It's not for everyone because you have to actually detox and many people simply can't do it. However, if you want to detox and be opioid free shouldn't you be made aware that option exists? That is an unassailable point and exactly what we are trying to do. You guys have built one strawman after another in this thread and you lack the appropriate knowledge of the space. Howevet, I keep responding so again, cap tip.
 
your refusal to concede that you may have slightly overstated the game changing nature of your client's product is very trumo like. So you get the cap tip. And I know the space plenty well.. and also on a very personal level. I also have no quarrel with your lobbying effort (even with the overstated altruism).. i was hung up on your hyperbole.

anyway i need to dig into the form for today's preakness card.. think there is so money to be made on the dixie at least.
 
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Cool, let me know if you find anything. I know nothing about horses. I was going to box the #3 and the #5 as my oldest likes to cheer.
 
You don't see the difference between giving opioid addicts opioids for the rest of their lives or getting them off opioids. Right, same thing. We are talking about drug addicts. There will never be a product that works every time. Vivitrol is the significant breakthrough. If you understand the addiction space in 10 seconds I applaud you because it's complicated stuff. You should quit your job in advertising and go help some people with addiction. Cap tip for the troll, you guys did wonderful work.


Classic Adp reading comp struggle. Where does it say I understand addiction in 10 seconds? It doesn't. What i said was, i read about Vivitrol and it was an exaggeration, it took more like 7 minutes. 7 minutes to find this 'game changer' is pretty much the repackaging of an existing drug in a new delivery form. And it's noted that it was severely under tested, and that it hardly ever stops people for taking whatever demon that are addicted to, it SOMETIMES slows down their intake.

That's your definition of game changing. And for someone who pretends to know so much about addiction, saying "The problem with drug addicts is they aren't great at maintaining discipline to treatment."

No, the problem with addicts is that they are addicts and they cannot stop themselves once they are addicted and suffer from everything from guilt to shame to dishonesty. Talking a drug once a day or a shot once a month has literally no bearing on recovery in many, many addicts. Literally the least of their obstacles. Also, your vivitrol is super expensive. Your little mom and pop pharma (1200 employees) is just here to help folks I guess.
 
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So you telling me Naltrexone was approved by the FDA based on a single study done in Russia? Really.
You're telling me that Naltrexone was conclusively shown to be more effective than Bupe? That study doesn't exist. Vivitrol doesn't want it to exist. The long term efficacy of Vivitrol is very much in doubt also- never been tracked. 6 months of less than being 15% better than a PLACEBO on Russian HIV patients was enough for the FDA, I guess. Make it law- Vivitrol posters in every medical office acro$$ the land!!
 
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Yes it is called science. Don't let that get in the way of guys with access to Google who don't understand it doesn't work when someone goes off the product. However, if you stay on you literally cannot get high if you did a truckload of heroin. It completely blocks the receptor in the brain for 30 days. There is no way around it. Back to ND's incoherent attempt to argue the FDA is now accepting studies from Russia to approve the naltrexone. Also, DMIL Alkermes is tiny, less than $650 million on total sales last year. That's tiny in PHRMA world. It's funny how you don't know, what you don't know.
 
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They won't get high on the truckload of heroin but it will still kill them.

In 08 they ran a head to head study - Vivitrol vs pill cousin naltrexone. Which showed better compliance? Naltrexone. So much for that miraculous injection compliance boost!

And then a review of 13 studies across 1158 addicts...
"The findings of this review suggest that oral naltrexone did not perform better than treatment with placebo or no pharmacological agent"

I wonder how many fake opiate addiction education websites were created by lobbyists to market this drug...
 
They won't get high on the truckload of heroin but it will still kill them.

In 08 they ran a head to head study - Vivitrol vs pill cousin naltrexone. Which showed better compliance? Naltrexone. So much for that miraculous injection compliance boost!

And then a review of 13 studies across 1158 addicts...
"The findings of this review suggest that oral naltrexone did not perform better than treatment with placebo or no pharmacological agent"

I wonder how many fake opiate addiction education websites were created by lobbyists to market this drug...
 
ND, you have no idea how silly you look at the moment. Let me help explain something for you. Naltrexone is the active compound. An oral is a bill. Vivitrol is a shot. The active compound is the same. When you cite the lack of compliance with the oral that's the point. I'm going to help you here. A long acting injectible is a shot in this case it says in your system for 30 days. You can do truckloads of heroin, you do not get high and don't die (note, still not recommended). The only way you relapse is if you don't go back and get your shot in 30 days. You must get clean to use it so it's not for everyone. You are citing this stuff and you don't know what you're reading. However, I'm glad you guys are trying to learn. When you say stuff like Vivitrol isn't as effective as bupe. Bupe is an opioid that keeps you high to eliminate the craving. It's a controlled high. Similar to a controlled burn of a forest fire. What you don't realize is that is citing someone who got clean, got on Vivitrol, stopped and then later went back to using so is technically a relapse.They stopped taking the product. It's not a situation where they got clean, took their shot and then went out and got high. It's impossible, can't happen. Science ensures this is not possible because the receptors in the brain are blocked. You guys have absolutely no clue what you're reading. However, it's funny watching you guys all think you know something.
 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...054354-7a4c-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html

This was front page Washington Post. I know that's not an accepted place for journalism but you should read this to help you get a better grasp on the product and how it works. This is part of the program we've been working with drug courts and prisons. It's referenced in the article. This is what it means to make an actual difference in someone's life. Way to go us. Been incredibly successful. Cops, law enforcement, drug courts and prisons love the product because you can use it behnd the wall before re-entry.You guys go back to trying to sound smart on a message board but not understanding what you are reading.
 
1. Oral not as effective as bupe
2. Shot not as effective as oral
3. (Use liberal artist thinking skills)

Surely there's a debate about opioid vs non-opiod treatment. I prefer that be settled by medical researchers, addiction specialists and doctors rather than pharma lobbyists and the judges and law enforcement officials that they have been charming and handing out free drugs trials.

Cap tip to you, though. An excellent side door to boosting sales of a decade old drinking pill. Will your next move be to have congress require my grocery store cashier to recommend Cap'n Crunch?
 
The doctors who want you to keep coming back and paying them $200 each month to write you the script for the opioid to manage your opioid addiction. This should be right up your cynical alley. We need someone to pose as an addiction specialist so you go after them next.
 
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