Dmill vs. adp, post a pic

[LoveBurger]

This is like when my girlfriend's niece asks me to read her a book and I'm hoping for those picture books with the one line saying "The Cat is Fat" and it turns out to be some 40 page story in paragraph form.

I was hoping for more pictures. Too many words and the story is boring.

 

[cleanwave]

Getting local Maryland County GOV to pay for pharma shot in jail is unique sales angle.

Cap tip'

 

[NickleDimer]

The doctors who want you to keep coming back and paying them $200 each month to write you the script for the opioid to manage your opioid addiction. This should be right up your cynical alley. We need someone to pose as an addiction specialist so you go after them next.

Maybe jgflava-in-Nam can fill that role.

If only Alkermes did a head to head efficacy study vs. other opiod treatments we would know these answers... Wonder why they haven't? What are they afraid of? Their miracle drug would surely shine? Right?

 

[adp98]

When you go for approval before the FDA you are judged based on that product for safety and efficacy. What you don't realize this was already done many years before. The product has been approved due to these reasons. In short, you are creating a strawman but don't know enough about the industry to know this. Think about what you are asking. Why would anyone spend the money on such a study in this patient population? It would never be required and really expensive. In addition, you won't know the results because you are dealing with addicts who are unstable. It is also not required. So it sounds great for anyone who wants to take shots at the company but it makes no sense if you understood anything about this process. You still don't understand the fact what they were testing is not if the product works. It absolutely works per the science. There is no doubt. The question you are raising is it is easier for opioid addicts to take a bill each day or a shot once every 30 days. The answer is obvious. What you cannot accurately test is can you guarantee addicts will do either. Hence it's not conclusive and why you want all these treatments available. You don't need to get clean to take bupe. For some, that's the way to go. However, if you can detox and don't want opioids, you should be offered that chance. Which is exactly what we're trying to do. Give people an option. Docs should be required to be trained on all available products and ensure patients receive a treatment plan and access to ALL products. Not just be handed a script for more opioids. No provider should ever push a proprietary product. That's not how medicine should ever be practiced and it's not but for in this space. That's exactly the issue we are trying to address and I'm proud of it. It's the right thing to do and if you guys knew 15% as much as you thought you did then you would understand.

 

[tomdudes]

Can't believe nobody has said yet that it's "too soon to tell" about this drug's efficacy.

 

[adp98]

Think about if heaven forbid you get cancer. You go to an oncologist and examine your condition and all the products available. You then sit down with the patient and determine the best course of treatment. Many times you have to take multiple treatments to get the right one. Each patient is different. That's not what we do with opioids. The Gov started by creating methodone clinics and every got methodone. Then Congress passed DATA 2000 that created Bupe distribution. So patients had another choice. What we are trying to do is now add similar protections that methodone clinics have to require doc education, training and disclosure to patients on ALL products. That doesn't happen today. We do not require docs to provide the ALL treatments but must provide a referral if a patient wants to try to become opioid free. You guys obviously don't know or understand this but that's what we are doing. Who in their right mind could be against this approach? I will tell you, docs who want to keep pushing opioids and get their $200 each month forever. Ultimately we will get these changes done and patients will have more options. That's good for everyone. There is no requirement to the Gov to pay for anything or docs to write anything. It's about treating addiction as a disease and giving patients options. Hope this finally clarifies. Also, do read the Washington Post piece. It will help provide some real world clarity. The Post does their research to take it from them.

 

[adp98]

Can't believe nobody has said yet that it's "too soon to tell" about this drug's efficacy.

No, there is no question on the science. You take it, it works. Patients only fail when they stop taking it.

 

[BigEastBasketball]

I am aware of all this. We are talking about drug addicts. Do you think every drug addict just gets cured? Curious to know how an addict "breaks through" a non opioid that bonds to the receptiors on your brain and turns them off? What happens is they stop the treatment and relapse. Which is part of the problem in this space and why giving them scripts to more opioid is not great when dealing with drug addicts. You feed the addiction and many times they take their bupe and sell it it get herion. So you now have even more opioid flooding the streets. You will never see a drug addict selling vivtrol because you can't do anythING with it. It's not an opioid and has no street value.

Have you considered just going to the West Virginia board and asking them what the problem is?

 

[adp98]

Have you considered just going to the West Virginia board and asking them what the problem is?

The mexicans and democrats are killing all their jobs so they are depressed.

 

[NickleDimer]

Some emotional essays being written in defense of this drug on a hoops newsgroup. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

 

[BigEastBasketball]

 

[bgranc02]

ADP I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that the drug works from an MOA perspective, that is not a question... just like the pills or implants. The question is if the the long acting formulation is more effective in keeping patients clean versus other methods.

Just because you say it is so doesn't make it so.. there is no evidence to support that claim. To make that claim you would need more trial data. So yes a study comparing it to other drug mediated methods would be pricey but it would also go a long way in convincing OLs in the space that the formulation was superior at keeping patients clean. This isn't a crazy idea... the lead author of the only published efficacy trial in these patients suggested this very sort of study was needed. The FDA does and can lower the data bar when approving drugs where there is unmet need.. so in your label you have a single efficacy trial supporting this indication.

And not sure where you got the idea that you can do truckloads of heroin on Vivitrol and be alright and not die?? That is literally the biggest warning to patients about the drug. And the blocking effect decreases over time in between injections. Overdoes and death risk is in the label.

Also lets not pretend that in office injections make doctors less money than pills.

 

[BigEastBasketball]

Over here

 

[adp98]

Of course it's in the label, cmon now strawman. Bupe isn't a pill first of all. Second, 5 injections vs a mon they visit for life and no cost of having to do the injection. How simple can this be. One is a consistent revenue stream where you write a script and get the patient out in 5 minutes vs the expense and time of an injection where the entire goal is the patient stops coming at some point. This is simple stuff here. We aren't comparing oral cancer drugs to injectible hete and that reimbursement model. Again, showing a lack of grasp on the addiction space, which I had no clue of until a few years ago either. You are missing a key part here because you don't know the space, these are private pay people for the most part. This isn't medicare where gov is paying. These are people for the most part paying their own money to get clean. They should be made aware of new treatments and the doctor be required to educate them on options? We wrote a specific provision where the doc doesn't even have to wrote the script. They are required to provide a referral to another doc who will let the consumer spend their own money to try the product. You guys don't understand the addiction space even a little.

 

[BigEastBasketball]

So wait, do they understand the space?

 

[NickleDimer]

So wait, do they understand the space?

experienced addiction experts, researchers and doctors do not understand the space as wel as a DC pharma lobbyist and some podunk wardens and judges that he's been coaching.

 

[bgranc02]

So then why did you say patients can do truck loads of heroin and be fine if you acknowledge the overdose risk is in the label? and who said anything about bupe?

And on a finer point.. in office injections are different than infusions which is what you are talking about with many cancer treatments. In office injections are also a great revenue stream for MDs and that's not a a bad thing.. it is why you see so many add allergy treatment to their offering, so they can give those shots It is more profitable than writing a script that gets filled at a pharmacy.

I feel like you have started to conflate about 5 different issues in this argument. My point is simply that you overstate this drug's significance and the company's altruism. Instead of conceding that even a little bit... you double down. Cap tip.

 

[adp98]

Thank you. It's a for profit company not charity source and they are doing great stuff. I believe in their mission and our work. Or I could just cast stones on a message board because that's cool.

 

[Anarchy99]

1200 bucks a shot every month for vivitrol and adp is trying to sell us on docs eager for 200 dollar visits to write scripts are the problem.

Branc hits on key thing. Addicts are still doing the drug even when using vivitrol in many cases. It's not stopping a lot of them from using. And the damage continues even if you do not experience the high. This is like making making food stop tasting good. Fat people still gonna eat. It's what they do. This is not some miracle. It's just another attempt to get addicts to stop, and on its own this drug, as many have noted, it's not very effective.

 

[NickleDimer]

Thank you. It's a for profit company not charity source and they are doing great stuff. I believe in their mission and our work. Or I could just cast stones on a message board because that's cool.

So... Make Pharma Great Again?

 

[adp98]

1200 bucks a shot every month for vivitrol and adp is trying to sell us on docs eager for 200 dollar visits to write scripts are the problem.

Branc hits on key thing. Addicts are still doing the drug even when using vivitrol in many cases. It's not stopping a lot of them from using. And the damage continues even if you do not experience the high. This is like making making food stop tasting good. Fat people still gonna eat. It's what they do. This is not some miracle. It's just another attempt to get addicts to stop, and on its own this drug, as many have noted, it's not very effective.

Pretend this is in crayons so you understand. If you are taking the product, you are not still getting high. No many how many times you try to make that argument, it's still wrong. You combine it will counselling like you should with any addict. You also have to detox. If you aren't clean it won't work.If you don't want to get clean, don't take it. It's not for those people. Which is why making sure you are required to edcuate and offer, but not forced to provide is the right policy and how we should treat all addicts. Just like you would a cancer patient. You are too dense to understand this and trying to discredit the product.

 

[adp98]

Simple question for the naysayers who are truly naysayers: Are you against educating opioid addicts on all products available to treat their given disease? Especially in this case where it's the only non-opioid alternative. Simple question. Yes or No?

 

[NickleDimer]

Simple question for the naysayers who are truly naysayers: Are you against educating opioid addicts on all products available to treat their given disease? Especially in this case where it's the only non-opioid alternative. Simple question. Yes or No?

Simple question: should federal legislation determine how physicians treat their patients? Yes or No way!

 

[adp98]

Feds established both methodone clinics and bupe distribution model and guildelines with DATA2000.Two ways addicts get treatment. That's why addiction space is different, feds established and you need to understand the space. Been more Congressional action creating treatment in this disease space than just about any other. Patients should be educated on their treatment options. This is the next steps as new therapies come online which benefits every single new therapy not just ours. Also encourages more investment in the space because now one of the biggest issues is the providers won't prescribe for reasons stated previously. It all makes very good policy sense and empowers consumers. Each product has different benefits for different needs.

 

[adp98]

Oh, and with that I rest my case and you can kiss my ass.

 

[tomdudes]

Is "understanding the space" better or worse than "following the narrative"?

 

[Anarchy99]

Simple in crayons because you don't seem to get a simple fact: people are still using even on Vivittrol . Yes, even though they don't feel the high. Fact. In some cases they up their own dosage thinking that will work. From H addicts to alcoholics drinking more. This is happening. A lot.

Look, you have some pharma company with a new delivery system paying you a boat load of money to lobby the right people so this drug gets used more. All well and good and in happy the girly Macan payments are solid right now. This drug may or may not be more effective than a host of other products on the market. In fact, many addicts believe the routine of taking daily pills helps them stay sober, and that once a month treatments leaves too much time between what they consider treatment. Again, this took very little time to read about. Even for those of us not in the space. The effectiveness of vivitrol for the purposes of sobriety is under considerable debate. Preventing a high and stopping the desire to get high are not even close to the same.

 

[adp98]

Bitter, got another trumo voter on our hands.

 

[RimJobbLarry]

How ironic that a thread started to mock 2 awful posters via pictures morphed into exhibit A as to why these 2 posters are so awful to begin with.

 

[NickleDimer]

Feds established both methodone clinics and bupe distribution model and guildelines with DATA2000.Two ways addicts get treatment. That's why addiction space is different, feds established and you need to understand the space. Been more Congressional action creating treatment in this disease space than just about any other. Patients should be educated on their treatment options. This is the next steps as new therapies come online which benefits every single new therapy not just ours. Also encourages more investment in the space because now one of the biggest issues is the providers won't prescribe for reasons stated previously. It all makes very good policy sense and empowers consumers. Each product has different benefits for different needs.

Feds regulate those because they're schedule II and III narcotics.

 

[Anarchy99]

Amazing how well you fit into DC. You're perfect.

 

[nardibynature2]

Used to work on Suboxone.

 

[Anarchy99]

Used to work on Suboxone.

So you understand the space?

 

[NickleDimer]

Used to work on Suboxone.

Did it effect your performance?

 

[nardibynature2]

Did it effect your performance?

No, I wasn't addicted to Heroin.

 

[NickleDimer]

No, I wasn't addicted to Heroin.

Just heroin jr.? Like having a miller lite instead of a double IPA?

 

[nardibynature2]

Just heroin jr.? Like having a miller lite instead of a double IPA?

Sure...