I"m far from a foreign policy expert but appears Putin's spiking the football on Obama again. Right as they are to meet he sends Russian planes to bomb CIA backed rebels in Syria. Tells Obama to stand down. Appears our foreign policy over there is a complete mess. SPG, this seems like it should be right up your alley. Can someone educate me beyond what I read about on Drudge etc...?
Putin rubbing Obama's nose in it again
- Thread starter adp98
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NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Our best strategy is to become energy independent and let those in the Middle East continue their centuries old wars among the many factions. The sad part is Iraq could have become a stable pseudo democracy if Obama had not turned victory into defeat by withdrawing all our troops. Trump has it right! "What do we get even if we win?"
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Comparing Russia's actions to their actions in Afghanistan is stupid. In Afghanistan, they were trying to install solidify the power of a puppet regime and actively engaged the mujaheddin, setting up a situation where they couldn't possibly win. Here, they're trying to buy time for Assad and help him hold territory, use the jets and the anti-aircraft to deter American strikes against Assad, and neutralize Assad's already weak enemies while largely ignoring the mujaheddin (ISIS).
This is 100 percent the result of the president making hollow red lines that he shouldn't have made in the first place. He's going to have to own this.
This is 100 percent the result of the president making hollow red lines that he shouldn't have made in the first place. He's going to have to own this.
I wasn't comparing russian actions in Syria to their actions in Afghanistan. My point was the US didn't learn from Russia in Afghanistan, and I wonder if they'll learn from us in Iraq if they escalate this any further.
The whole concept of regime change in the middle east has proven to be a horrible concept for the US over the last 20 years. Unless we're willing to leave troops there for decades (which we shouldn't be), there are 1000 year old rivalries and power struggles that will outlast whatever we do there. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. I hate to say, that often times the devil you know is far better than the devil you don't know.
Obama's redline has nothing to do with this. The american people don't want troops on the ground in the middle east and we have such poor intelligence on the ground, we have no idea who to support or how to support them. That is not an administration issue, it is an issue with us not investing in Syria for the past 20 years across both republican and democrat governments.
The whole concept of regime change in the middle east has proven to be a horrible concept for the US over the last 20 years. Unless we're willing to leave troops there for decades (which we shouldn't be), there are 1000 year old rivalries and power struggles that will outlast whatever we do there. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. I hate to say, that often times the devil you know is far better than the devil you don't know.
Obama's redline has nothing to do with this. The american people don't want troops on the ground in the middle east and we have such poor intelligence on the ground, we have no idea who to support or how to support them. That is not an administration issue, it is an issue with us not investing in Syria for the past 20 years across both republican and democrat governments.
FYI - we are energy independent today
BTW, this is why I hate politics. We have every right wing nut watching fox news blaming the situation on Obama and every left wing nut watching MSNBC blaming it on Bush. We're where we are. Both parties have made horrible decisions since 9/11. That's OK, we're learning. What's best for our country moving forward
I'd argue we didn't even learn from our own original afghan experience... Let alone the Russian experience. For the very reasons you illustrate in your second paragraph. Exact scenario that helped create the environment for al Qaeda and 9/11
Well said TD. Why I hate politics too.
I was at my friend's house the other night. He a right-wing nut job. You can tell he is just regurgitating whatever he heard on some right-wing radio station that week.
Anyways, the topic of Trump came up. He loves him b/c he isn't politically correct and speaks his mind. Was laughing and impressed with some of the crazy stuff Trump has said.
Two minutes later he starts talking about Obama. Refers to something the Prez said recently. Starts going off "that's so damn childish! He's a grown ass man and he is saying shit like that!"
So Trump is great b/c he says unprofessional stuff (not that I care), but Obama is an asshole. Makes sense
this is pure horse-doo-doo. Our troops could have stayed there for a hundred years and the people wouldn't embrace a psuedo democracy. The most recent failure in the Mid East is traceable to Bush. Much of the "modern" Mid-East problem goes back to the establishment of Israel as an independent state back in 1948. Blame the late 19th century Brits for invading Syria.
Beyond Israel you have to include our shah shenanigans and our belief in the Brits absolutely bunk intelligence at that time.
TD, I don't generally disagree with you but we are not energy independent today. We still import oil from the Middle East and the administration has done nothing but throw up road blocks to that goal. I give you Keystone as a prime example. Between Canada, the U.S. and Mexico we have more oil and gas than the rest of the world. We need a co-ordinated plan with Mexico and Canada to satisfy North American energy needs and then we can kiss the Middle East goodbye for good. I'll repeat what Trump said yesterday. "Why get involved there. What do we get even if we win?" Let Putin drag Russia into Middle East involvement. We tried it and we got nothing except trillions added to the national debt and lots of young men and women dead and wounded.
Eric, General Patraeus established generally peaceful conditions with the so-called "Sunni awakening" when he secured the Sunni tribal leaders help in driving out Al Quaeda. Terror attacks throughout Iraq dropped off substantially and there was general peace throughout the country. The conditions were created for the first democratic elections in Iraq's history. The Obama precipitous troop withdrawal against the advice of our military coupled with the corrupt Al Maliki government is what caused all that progress to be overturned. Check your history. Read Patraeus and other military generals who quit the military books on the subject. Also, read Panetta's book where he really criticizes Obama's lack of a plan for Iraq. They are all pretty telling accounts of what actually happened.
they are all self-serving, propaganda. people like Patraeus and Panetta and these military leaders write books because a) they are grossly underpaid and need the money and b) they want to leave a legacy describing their greatness in their own words.
the people in Iraq don't give a crap about secular governments - they want to be left alone. they are smart enough to realize if you just wait us out we will leave. Stupid decision by a clueless Bush cabinet and it was ram-rodded through in such a way to limit open and honest debate. It was immediately spun into the trite and misleading "support our troops" mantra. You want to support our troops? Don't send them off to fight in worthless endeavors.
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We should have invaded Northern Ireland when we had the chance
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Just because we still import oil, doesn't mean we don't have energy independence. We import because it makes sense
i have always thought we should use up all the oil over there first - then, years from now we are sitting on it all.
Obviously it looks like crap when the americans are sitting on the sidelines. Hundreds of thousands are already dead, and thousands more are risking their lives trying to leave Syria. It truly is a civil war there are so many factions that co-operation is impossible. I don't know exactly what the russians are hoping to get out of this, but if they want to deal with that mess, so be it. Being the world police sucks, and Syria might be the suckiest place of all.
From what I have read the Russians are trying to accomplish a few things: first, to replace the US as the World Super Power. They don't put up artificial red lines and then sit idle as the lines are crossed. Putin is showing first in Ukraine and now here they will use force. 2nd, they are backing one of their large customers in Assad. 3rd, they are rubbing Obama's nose in it by bombing US backed rebels who are fighting ISIS/ISIL and demonstrating the lack of US policy by instituting a no fly zone one hour before their jets went in and bombed said US backed rebel forces. 4th, demonstrating to the radicals in that part of the world that Russia is not be messed. They will crush you. Now we could argue if any of this actually works long-term is a good strategy. Note, I'm far from a foreign affairs expert and don't claim any superior historical knowledge of these issues. From what I have read, Putin has certainly succeeded on these objectives. Whether that is a good long-term strategy and leads to more issues within the Russian borders concerning radicals Islam is another question. So it probably depends if you see Putin as some crazy man or someone who is actually much smarter than given credit and obviously gets the best of Obama. To have this coincide when Putin-Obama meet says a lot about Putin's ability to stick it to Obama in a very public manner. If you recall, Putin was supposed to be diplomatically frozen out by his actions in Ukraine. So now that's walked back and he sticks to Obama making him look like a complete wallflower who got caught with his pants down. According to people much more versed in the subject, that is an unmistakable fact and shows the complete lack of coherent US foreign policy.