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Saving for kids' college?

Fat Wanker

All VUSports.com Team
Mar 23, 2012
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As a liberal artist, I am not well-versed in finance. I have heard stories of people saving for college and finding out that they would have gotten financial aid if they had not saved. I don't know if that only applies to low income people.

We have started to contribute some to a 529 account. Is this a good idea or are we just going to disqualify our kids for aid? (I suspect that depends on whether we are beyond the aid threshold anyway). Are there better places to put savings to prevent disqualification?

Thanks for any help. Let's hear it VSB grads.
 
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Not a VSB grad but we have Virginia 529s for all the kids. If you are a white person and not a trump voter I would not anticipate much aid. Save your money, don't rely on aid. The other option is to claim you are native american, worked for elazabeth warren.
 
Financial aid formula is primarily income driven. Save as much as you can. Schools handle the process in their own way. Most schools will give their best "offer" to incoming freshman because they figure once you attend, you are less likely to leave if the aid diminishes in future years. Some will tell you what their aid will be before you commit, some will wait until after.
 
The financial aid process does not take into account other private high school tuition or second home costs. It does take into account your primary mortgage. So if you have a younger child that's costing you 15 or 20k for high school, the financial aid formula will also expect you to have that same money available to pay for college.
 
The Utah and Nevada 529 plans at Vanguard are very good:
- they are "aged based" with a heavy weighting to equities when they are very young and the balance is automatically shifted to fixed income and cash as they approach college age
- the fees are very reasonable as they use Vanguard index funds
- you do not have to be a resident of the sponsor state or go to school there
- you can "front load" 529 plans with up to five years gifting (5 x $14,000)
 
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Going through the process now. Best advice I can give is the following:

1) Save money , but funnel it to an account in your mom's name. Or another relative. College pour over every last corner of your financial situation. They all work differently but be prepared to feel violated by the questioning. "How much is tuition? " "Well that depends, how much are you worth?"

2) Have a very smart kid. It helps. Colleges in effect are in competition, and their numbers are a huge part of their sales pitch. Kid get into their reach, expect to pay near sticker if you do decently. But if your kid is smart and from a well regarded school, those numbers are gold, even to good schools. Go down a peg, and they usually throw a fair amount of money at you. 65K (pretty much the going rate as far as I can tell) goes to 20-30K in a hurry if they want the numbers. There is also a fair amount of courting "this is my number 1" etc.

3) The money is available and people are borrowing it like crazy, so acceptance rates this year were driven down. Also, HS's are inflating grades to get their kids in better schools. College are inflating their grades so their kids get better jobs. So the competition is pretty brutal. Mine ended up getting accepted into some very good places, but also rejected at a fair amount that on paper (if your school uses Naviance, you know what I mean) where she seemed to be lock. Got into Nova early and they threw her 25k without any negotiating (yes, you can negotiate). She's not going, but those type of offers are out there.

4) The whole thing is a racket. Sometimes it's like the scene in Good Will Hunting when Will sends Afleck into his job interview and he asked for payola. Example, mine was wait listed at one of her higher end places and I called to see what her chances are, and the guy basically asked if I was interested in making a donation. "You situation, heretofore, would be greatly improved...."

5) As mentioned, the financial vetting process is intrusive. Been in your house for a while and have some genuine equity in it? Well, that literally translate to cash to some schools. Have a rental property? Well, that rent is your tuition answer! What's in your bank account? What's in your kid's bank account. What's in their siblings bank accounts? What's in your business account? It's ALL held against you and what they call the EFC (expected family contribution ) Oh you saved in a 529? Great, that's ours. And you have a decent job? You both work? I'm afraid you're looking at the full monty sir. FAFSA forms, CSS profiles, W2, 1099's - get used it when the time comes.

6) Some schools are need blind and meet the needs of their students. It seems to correlate quite nicely with the size of their endowments, but not always. For instance, a school like U of Rochester has 2.1B laying around. It's a great school and they were very willing to have a back and forth. Other places were not. Basically, take it or leave it. Also, when your next one comes around, there are some schools where you EFC will not change, as long as both schools are need aware. So, if you are paying say 45 for one, and have another one on the way, many schools do not expect you to pay more than 45 total - and drop their number in half basically. You basically get a 2 for one, but make no mistake, this does not apply to all schools. For example Tufts will tel you the average student debt upon graduation is 18K. Seems reasonable, right? Well, Tufts is not need blind - and it's a small school with basically 1200 spots to fill - they have plenty of full payers to choose from, and they favor them over need based students.

7)There is really no set formula for this. Some schools will really work with you, some will not budge. At the end of the day, most of the decent schools are the sellers and their product is in high demand. If the school is smaller, they simply do not need to fill that many spots. Many will simply take the full payers, even if they have lesser grades, and be done with it. But some are genuinely interested in bringing in the smartest class possible and if they like the student and the student shows them a lot of love, they will work with you to some degree.

8) Vet your schools for their alumni network. Some are awesome at this, some do a really poor job and don't focus on it at all. The object of this whole thing is to get a job in a field that your kid finds interesting and has a path too success and self reliance, and some universities to a much better job at helping kids connect to that interest, and finding the right people already in it who can help. Ask this question on every tour. You'll know the good ones (and the lesser ones) when you hear it.

9) To some degree it's all mostly BS. If you are smart and willing to work, you can go to Umass or Tufts and you'd probably wind up in the same place 5 years after graduation. The better schools can be a nice head start, and nice pin to carry around as you move ahead, but I'm not sure it really matters. I've meet my fair share of complete idiots at Yale, and have seen a few brilliant people that went St Nowhere U.

10) In the end your original point is valid. Not having money does in fact get you some leeway on the EFC, but make no mistake, the reason you got that leeway is because you don't have money and the leeway they give won't make it painless. They don't go from 65K to 15K - More likely they drop it to 40-45K. (which, you know, does say you 100K give or take over 4 years.) Throw in multiple kids and those numbers add up. Save and hide. That's my advice.
 
Going through the process now. Best advice I can give is the following:

1) Save money , but funnel it to an account in your mom's name. Or another relative. College pour over every last corner of your financial situation. They all work differently but be prepared to feel violated by the questioning. "How much is tuition? " "Well that depends, how much are you worth?"

2) Have a very smart kid. It helps. Colleges in effect are in competition, and their numbers are a huge part of their sales pitch. Kid get into their reach, expect to pay near sticker if you do decently. But if your kid is smart and from a well regarded school, those numbers are gold, even to good schools. Go down a peg, and they usually throw a fair amount of money at you. 65K (pretty much the going rate as far as I can tell) goes to 20-30K in a hurry if they want the numbers. There is also a fair amount of courting "this is my number 1" etc.

3) The money is available and people are borrowing it like crazy, so acceptance rates this year were driven down. Also, HS's are inflating grades to get their kids in better schools. College are inflating their grades so their kids get better jobs. So the competition is pretty brutal. Mine ended up getting accepted into some very good places, but also rejected at a fair amount that on paper (if your school uses Naviance, you know what I mean) where she seemed to be lock. Got into Nova early and they threw her 25k without any negotiating (yes, you can negotiate). She's not going, but those type of offers are out there.

4) The whole thing is a racket. Sometimes it's like the scene in Good Will Hunting when Will sends Afleck into his job interview and he asked for payola. Example, mine was wait listed at one of her higher end places and I called to see what her chances are, and the guy basically asked if I was interested in making a donation. "You situation, heretofore, would be greatly improved...."

5) As mentioned, the financial vetting process is intrusive. Been in your house for a while and have some genuine equity in it? Well, that literally translate to cash to some schools. Have a rental property? Well, that rent is your tuition answer! What's in your bank account? What's in your kid's bank account. What's in their siblings bank accounts? What's in your business account? It's ALL held against you and what they call the EFC (expected family contribution ) Oh you saved in a 529? Great, that's ours. And you have a decent job? You both work? I'm afraid you're looking at the full monty sir. FAFSA forms, CSS profiles, W2, 1099's - get used it when the time comes.

6) Some schools are need blind and meet the needs of their students. It seems to correlate quite nicely with the size of their endowments, but not always. For instance, a school like U of Rochester has 2.1B laying around. It's a great school and they were very willing to have a back and forth. Other places were not. Basically, take it or leave it. Also, when your next one comes around, there are some schools where you EFC will not change, as long as both schools are need aware. So, if you are paying say 45 for one, and have another one on the way, many schools do not expect you to pay more than 45 total - and drop their number in half basically. You basically get a 2 for one, but make no mistake, this does not apply to all schools. For example Tufts will tel you the average student debt upon graduation is 18K. Seems reasonable, right? Well, Tufts is not need blind - and it's a small school with basically 1200 spots to fill - they have plenty of full payers to choose from, and they favor them over need based students.

7)There is really no set formula for this. Some schools will really work with you, some will not budge. At the end of the day, most of the decent schools are the sellers and their product is in high demand. If the school is smaller, they simply do not need to fill that many spots. Many will simply take the full payers, even if they have lesser grades, and be done with it. But some are genuinely interested in bringing in the smartest class possible and if they like the student and the student shows them a lot of love, they will work with you to some degree.

8) Vet your schools for their alumni network. Some are awesome at this, some do a really poor job and don't focus on it at all. The object of this whole thing is to get a job in a field that your kid finds interesting and has a path too success and self reliance, and some universities to a much better job at helping kids connect to that interest, and finding the right people already in it who can help. Ask this question on every tour. You'll know the good ones (and the lesser ones) when you hear it.

9) To some degree it's all mostly BS. If you are smart and willing to work, you can go to Umass or Tufts and you'd probably wind up in the same place 5 years after graduation. The better schools can be a nice head start, and nice pin to carry around as you move ahead, but I'm not sure it really matters. I've meet my fair share of complete idiots at Yale, and have seen a few brilliant people that went St Nowhere U.

10) In the end your original point is valid. Not having money does in fact get you some leeway on the EFC, but make no mistake, the reason you got that leeway is because you don't have money and the leeway they give won't make it painless. They don't go from 65K to 15K - More likely they drop it to 40-45K. (which, you know, does say you 100K give or take over 4 years.) Throw in multiple kids and those numbers add up. Save and hide. That's my advice.
Wow, every once in a while we get a solid post that keeps me coming back.
 
Going through the process now. Best advice I can give is the following:

1) Save money , but funnel it to an account in your mom's name. Or another relative. College pour over every last corner of your financial situation. They all work differently but be prepared to feel violated by the questioning. "How much is tuition? " "Well that depends, how much are you worth?"

2) Have a very smart kid. It helps. Colleges in effect are in competition, and their numbers are a huge part of their sales pitch. Kid get into their reach, expect to pay near sticker if you do decently. But if your kid is smart and from a well regarded school, those numbers are gold, even to good schools. Go down a peg, and they usually throw a fair amount of money at you. 65K (pretty much the going rate as far as I can tell) goes to 20-30K in a hurry if they want the numbers. There is also a fair amount of courting "this is my number 1" etc.

3) The money is available and people are borrowing it like crazy, so acceptance rates this year were driven down. Also, HS's are inflating grades to get their kids in better schools. College are inflating their grades so their kids get better jobs. So the competition is pretty brutal. Mine ended up getting accepted into some very good places, but also rejected at a fair amount that on paper (if your school uses Naviance, you know what I mean) where she seemed to be lock. Got into Nova early and they threw her 25k without any negotiating (yes, you can negotiate). She's not going, but those type of offers are out there.

4) The whole thing is a racket. Sometimes it's like the scene in Good Will Hunting when Will sends Afleck into his job interview and he asked for payola. Example, mine was wait listed at one of her higher end places and I called to see what her chances are, and the guy basically asked if I was interested in making a donation. "You situation, heretofore, would be greatly improved...."

5) As mentioned, the financial vetting process is intrusive. Been in your house for a while and have some genuine equity in it? Well, that literally translate to cash to some schools. Have a rental property? Well, that rent is your tuition answer! What's in your bank account? What's in your kid's bank account. What's in their siblings bank accounts? What's in your business account? It's ALL held against you and what they call the EFC (expected family contribution ) Oh you saved in a 529? Great, that's ours. And you have a decent job? You both work? I'm afraid you're looking at the full monty sir. FAFSA forms, CSS profiles, W2, 1099's - get used it when the time comes.

6) Some schools are need blind and meet the needs of their students. It seems to correlate quite nicely with the size of their endowments, but not always. For instance, a school like U of Rochester has 2.1B laying around. It's a great school and they were very willing to have a back and forth. Other places were not. Basically, take it or leave it. Also, when your next one comes around, there are some schools where you EFC will not change, as long as both schools are need aware. So, if you are paying say 45 for one, and have another one on the way, many schools do not expect you to pay more than 45 total - and drop their number in half basically. You basically get a 2 for one, but make no mistake, this does not apply to all schools. For example Tufts will tel you the average student debt upon graduation is 18K. Seems reasonable, right? Well, Tufts is not need blind - and it's a small school with basically 1200 spots to fill - they have plenty of full payers to choose from, and they favor them over need based students.

7)There is really no set formula for this. Some schools will really work with you, some will not budge. At the end of the day, most of the decent schools are the sellers and their product is in high demand. If the school is smaller, they simply do not need to fill that many spots. Many will simply take the full payers, even if they have lesser grades, and be done with it. But some are genuinely interested in bringing in the smartest class possible and if they like the student and the student shows them a lot of love, they will work with you to some degree.

8) Vet your schools for their alumni network. Some are awesome at this, some do a really poor job and don't focus on it at all. The object of this whole thing is to get a job in a field that your kid finds interesting and has a path too success and self reliance, and some universities to a much better job at helping kids connect to that interest, and finding the right people already in it who can help. Ask this question on every tour. You'll know the good ones (and the lesser ones) when you hear it.

9) To some degree it's all mostly BS. If you are smart and willing to work, you can go to Umass or Tufts and you'd probably wind up in the same place 5 years after graduation. The better schools can be a nice head start, and nice pin to carry around as you move ahead, but I'm not sure it really matters. I've meet my fair share of complete idiots at Yale, and have seen a few brilliant people that went St Nowhere U.

10) In the end your original point is valid. Not having money does in fact get you some leeway on the EFC, but make no mistake, the reason you got that leeway is because you don't have money and the leeway they give won't make it painless. They don't go from 65K to 15K - More likely they drop it to 40-45K. (which, you know, does say you 100K give or take over 4 years.) Throw in multiple kids and those numbers add up. Save and hide. That's my advice.

Goodfellas_Voiceover-Ray-Liotta-300x243.jpg


"I never voted. I never paid taxes. My birth certificate and my arrest sheet, that's all you'd ever have to know I was alive." - Anarchy99
 
College is pretty much a huge scam and ripoff. Tell your kid to learn a trade like plumbing and he can gouge Adp's kid to fix his toilet in 20 years
 
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Good topic. I'm in a similar situation and hope I can find a way to send my 2 kids to Nova. My wife and I are 40 and pretty much middle income ($215k to $250 combined - varies within that range from year to year). Our kids are young but we haven't put much away for college. I was wondering it would be better to put what little spare money we have into less-available investments - like a more expensive house - to have a better shot at aid. Would that work?
 
Good topic. I'm in a similar situation and hope I can find a way to send my 2 kids to Nova. My wife and I are 40 and pretty much middle income ($215k to $250 combined - varies within that range from year to year). Our kids are young but we haven't put much away for college. I was wondering it would be better to put what little spare money we have into less-available investments - like a more expensive house - to have a better shot at aid. Would that work?


You might be in a bit of purgatory here. It's just enough to where they expect you pay near full and not enough to where you'd be comfortable paying a post tax 50-60k. You can pitch the idea of outside financial obligations like your house, but in my experience they generally look at something like that as an asset that leaves you capable of more borrowing. I'm not sure upping your house is going to buy you much mercy. I would seriously consider funneling money to a relative somehow. Its probably the best thing you can do other than make more money and just pony up.
 
Anarchy: I like the first idea but isn't that fraud?


I would not call it fraud any more than I would call hiring an accountant to use the tax system to pay less fraud. There is no law against what i suggested. You're free to give relatives money in increments without tax implications. Colleges are free to not fulfill aid requests. And i certainly don't feel bad about a bit of cat and mouse with institutions that have 700M plus in their bank account. I am not forcing them into anything. I'm not asking for welfare, I'm asking for their offer. They don't have to do anything, and many of them don't. I think outside of the top top tier, and probably the tier just below that - it's all pretty much preference and offerings and there are thousands of colleges. There isn't a gun to either side's head here.
 
Dmil just made the trump case for bankruptcy.
 
Dmil just made the trump case for bankruptcy.


Actually the exact opposite. If I sent my kid there and planned on skipping out on the bill, and borrowed a bunch from her college in the meantime, that would be the case for Trumo's bankruptcy. This is a simple financial agreement between two parties similar to buying a new 5 series every year where we agree on a price for a product and I pay for that product. Nothing more.
 
No, arguing that you are using the complex laws to your advantage is the exact thing he says ton defend his bankruptcies. Word-for-word.
 
Trump has said that he has borrowed a lot of money with the intent of giving the borrower a haircut on the agreed upon return. Some would said that's savvy business, I happen to think it's slime ball shit. It's far from using an accountant to make sure you don't over pay or haggling on a the price of an expensive item. At least to me. Helluva leap by you. Cap tip on the stretch but the logic needs to hit the showers
 
You realize my Google machine works as well right? He said exactly what you said. You call it looking for an edge, it's cheating. Just like steroids in baseball."I haven't gone bankrupt, I have taken advantage of our controls laws". Donald Trump or dmil?
 
You realize my Google machine works as well right? He said exactly what you said. You call it looking for an edge, it's cheating. Just like steroids in baseball."I haven't gone bankrupt, I have taken advantage of our controls laws". Donald Trump or dmil?


You can be incredible oblivious at times. I mean, flat out willfully stupid. What part of negotiation and fulfilling a financial obligation in your world feels the same as intentionally going into a deal looking to default on all or part of it?
 
Going into a deal with intention to default. Please use specific examples where trump did this and cite the intention.
 
You can be incredible oblivious at times. I mean, flat out willfully stupid. What part of negotiation and fulfilling a financial obligation in your world feels the same as intentionally going into a deal looking to default on all or part of it?
You're not negotiating in good faith. You're hiding assets to solicit a better deal in the negotiation, rather than negotiating with accurate facts on the table. Not so dissimilar to someone thinking they can just renegotiate a deal later by hiding behind bankruptcy laws. Neither party is being upfront. I'm sure you rationalize it by saying that they're not showing all of their cards to you either, but the bottom line is you are attempting to fraudulently induce a better offer from the schools.
 
Going into a deal with intention to default. Please use specific examples where trump did this and cite the intention.

He's obviously done it a few times. He spoke about it last week. We won't even get into his casino history. Of course you can 'use the google machine' for that.


ANDREW ROSS SORKIN (CO-HOST): Mr. Trump, you talk about debt. And you are to some degree the king of debt -- I appreciate that point. You’ve also renegotiated debt agreements over the years. Do you believe that we, in terms of the United States, need to pay 100 cents on the dollar? Or do you think there are actually ways that we could renegotiate that debt?

TRUMP: I think -- look, I've borrowed knowing that you can pay back with discounts. And I've done very well with debt. Now of course I was swashbuckling, and it did well for me, and it was good for me, and all that. And you know debt was sort of always interesting to me. Now, we are in a different situation with a country, but I would borrow knowing that if the economy crashed you could make a deal. And if the economy was good, it was good, so therefore you can't lose. It’s like you make a deal before you go into a poker game.
 
That's the same at all. He is not going in to default. He knows he can renogitaite not talking about decieving by setting up a 529 in his mother's name.
 
Also, he's talking about our country's debt and foreign creditors. He saying fuk them, they need us.
 
You're not negotiating in good faith. You're hiding assets to solicit a better deal in the negotiation, rather than negotiating with accurate facts on the table. Not so dissimilar to someone thinking they can just renegotiate a deal later by hiding behind bankruptcy laws. Neither party is being upfront. I'm sure you rationalize it by saying that they're not showing all of their cards to you either, but the bottom line is you are attempting to fraudulently induce a better offer from the schools.


Well, i actually did not do this. I only recommended it to the original poster. I probably would have if I was smarter and planned better. Again, it's not a forced agreement. No one has to agree to anything. It's more like buying a car and saying during negotiation that you only have some much to pay per month. They don't have to sell it to you. I don't have to buy that car. Two willing parties trying to come to an agreement. What i'm not doing though is coming to that agreement knowing I am going to ask for more in 6 months. Or knowing, well we agreed on 50K, but I know I can throw em 35 this year and eff em. They can go pound sand because they are stuck with a half built building. It's a shitty practice. On their end, they don't mind telling me it cost them 65K per kid to keep them there, and they are losing money on 40K, when we know they are not. At the end of the day, what they charge me and we agree upon is what I intend to pay. That's not what trumo does.
 
Anarchy, I like the con, but how is this different than renting a house on airbnb complaining about it and to get your money back you threaten to write a bad review on the internet.
 
Bigger benchwarmer fraud: Dmill's money laundering/failure to report assets or tjc paying "his fair share"
 
Adp makes a compelling case why it's similar, but I tend to lean towards dmils side on this one. Trumo's move comes after the deal, which tends to convince me that it's a slimier move. I used to work in land development and some developers would routinely want to pay a discounted bill for engineering services. They would never ask their attorney to take less, but would squeeze the engineer, the architect, and builder at every step.
 
Trumo's move comes after the deal, which tends to convince me that it's a slimier move.

Trumo more or less admitted that he has taken loans that he never intended to fully pay back. It implies that he knew it going into the deal.
 
Trumo more or less admitted that he has taken loans that he never intended to fully pay back. It implies that he knew it going into the deal.
And Anarchy is going in to the college deals with colleges knowing full well that he does not intend to pay full price and lie about his income.
 
Anarchy, I like the con, but how is this different than renting a house on airbnb complaining about it and to get your money back you threaten to write a bad review on the internet.


Because you are not stealing the service. You are paying for it. They don't have to agree to anything and many do not. Where did I say I was going to demand money back from something I already used?

Trumo is pretty famous for not paying for things. This was widely reported long before he was running. There is a good story out there about Trumo airlines and the woman who did some of his billboards near LGA. He pulls an arak routinely - orders the service, uses the service, gets what he wants then complains and refuses to pay.
 
And Anarchy is going in to the college deals with colleges knowing full well that he does not intend to pay full price and lie about his income.

I intend to pay fully the price we agree upon. They don't have to agree, and if they do, they will get their money. 100%. Not like i had someone build me a casino then paid them literally 3 cents on the dollar it cost them to build it.
 
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