Exactly USMC. Of course it didn't effect the players direct performance on the field. There are no sanctions that have been applied because some booster gave a player a house and that made him twice as fast. Your logic there really doesn't make any sense to me. To me it's kind of the like the opposite of providing impermissible benefits. Instead of coaches giving cash or homes or cars which make the school look positive in the recruits eyes, Paterno buried/didn't do anything (or some will say enough) regarding this story because it would have put the school in a poor light and would have hurt recruiting therefore hurting the product on the field. Don't really get your line of reasoning regarding it not making the players play better but it surely would have effected the skill levels of the players that they did get.
Sure to piss off Ball & all his alts.....
- Thread starter Mainliner II
- Start date
It's official. Wins restored.
Somewhere in Hawaii, a keyboard is about to take a merciless beating.
WE ARE!
Somewhere in Hawaii, a keyboard is about to take a merciless beating.
WE ARE!
Actually we do know. There is no way Paterno could have recovered if it comes out that his defensive coordinator was raping young boys under his watch on campus. Zero chance. Not even at Penn State, where such a thing is deemed acceptable as long as football is still being played. Eventually the public outcry outside of Happy Valley would have ended him.
So , he covered it up, let it stand and continued business as usual. Breaking the scandal puts him not only at a disadvantage, it should by even the least sane of measures cost him job immediately. But by not stopping it, he was able to help himself. Simple. No interruptions in recruiting, fundraising, PR or appearance. Coverup in this case is every bit as bad as the crime, because it lead to more kids getting raped at Penn State. I am not sure how Joe Paterno lived with himself.
And if any other college program finds themselves with a heinous crime in the future that might affect their sports team, whether it be rape, serial murder, child slavery, or anything at all, they will know the best course of action is to cover it up for decades, since even if caught, the precedence is virtually no punishment.
This post was edited on 1/16 8:43 PM by vufjm93
This post was edited on 1/16 8:43 PM by vufjm93
I think they realize that JoPa knew about the rapes. They just think that either: (1) he did all he could to stop it; or (2) it doesn't matter because he won football games.
It is really sick culture that should be studied for sociology classes.
Only two things really get me fired up in sports: temple and penn state.
It's good to review the timeline to understand how much of a monster both paterno and sandusky really are. paterno ADMITTED -- in a statement in 2011 -- that he knew about sandusky and the shower incident in 2002. These are facts (not much to argue about here).
However, it's this segment (below) that will always stand out to me as when paterno knew and did nothing but ask him to retire the next year. The guy finally came to grips with what he did and killed himself. I always think suicide is tragic, but I won't miss him.
1998: Sandusky asks a boy identified as Victim 6, now 24, to shower with him when he is 11, and Sandusky lathers soap on his back and bear-hugs him, according to the grand jury report. The boy tells his mother, who reports it to the university.
1998: University police investigate allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky. No criminal charges are pursued.
June 1, 1998: University police interview Sandusky, who admits showering with Victim 6. A detective tells Sandusky never to shower with children again, says the grand jury report.
Sandusky/Paterno Timeline
It's good to review the timeline to understand how much of a monster both paterno and sandusky really are. paterno ADMITTED -- in a statement in 2011 -- that he knew about sandusky and the shower incident in 2002. These are facts (not much to argue about here).
However, it's this segment (below) that will always stand out to me as when paterno knew and did nothing but ask him to retire the next year. The guy finally came to grips with what he did and killed himself. I always think suicide is tragic, but I won't miss him.
1998: Sandusky asks a boy identified as Victim 6, now 24, to shower with him when he is 11, and Sandusky lathers soap on his back and bear-hugs him, according to the grand jury report. The boy tells his mother, who reports it to the university.
1998: University police investigate allegations of sexually inappropriate behavior involving Sandusky. No criminal charges are pursued.
June 1, 1998: University police interview Sandusky, who admits showering with Victim 6. A detective tells Sandusky never to shower with children again, says the grand jury report.
Sandusky/Paterno Timeline
Dmil, I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, but I do with one part. If JoPa goes into proper action from the start after learning about Sandusky then I don't think he should lose his job. Sometimes bad people find their way into the inner circles of organizations. It happens every day in society. It's unfortunate and it sucks. But if you're a good person and do the right thing at the outset then you shouldn't have to pay the price. I'd Sally this line of thinking in any walk of life. However, Joe didn't do this, so that absolutely changes things.
Problem for PSU is that any sympathy and respect that anyone had for the program doing the right thing is gone. In that sense, this "win" is a total loss. Now anyone watching them in the future will feel that they chose football wins and records over accepting a reasonable punishment for a horrible wrong done to dozens if not hundreds of children. They were almost a sympathetic figure trying to come back from the penalties. That feeling (outside the cult) is totally and completely gone.
Just reading the comments section of any article about this is enough to make you sick to your stomach. Yes, people seems to be for the most part really against children getting raped by a grown man, but not so much that they would want anything bad to happen to their football team or their favorite coach. It's more important that this coach keep his 'wins', and it's appalling that anyone would question what he knew ("you weren't there!" or "You don't know what Joe knew!")
It's positively surreal. Like idiot girls lining up outside the trial of the Boston Bomber because the think he's cute, only they have the excuse of being young and dumb. People at Penn State are seemingly fully grown semi-educated professionals and in at least a number of cases have jobs and families. Children were raped. There were eye witnesses that brought this to Joe Paterno's attention. The rapist was not only not prosecuted at the time, he was allowed to continue using Penn State facilities under Joe Paterno's permission. Nothing short of Joe Paterno going to every last leader in law enforcement should have been acceptable to anyone. Again, CHILDREN WERE GETTING RAPED ON CAMPUS AND HE KNEW THEY WERE GETTING RAPED AND BY WHOM THEY WERE GETTING RAPED. He did next to nothing. And then he let it continue. For YEARS.
The man put football ahead of innocent children being ruined for life. And subsequently his sheoples also put (and continue to put) football ahead of one of humanity's most horrific crimes. And yet they wonder why everyone can't see what they see. It's like Happy Valley is full of Lance Armstrongs, and they're just going to keep it all going. It's not a lie of you actually believe it. Never mind the football program, the entire university should have been shut down.
This post was edited on 1/18 11:32 AM by Ninetynine5.0
It's positively surreal. Like idiot girls lining up outside the trial of the Boston Bomber because the think he's cute, only they have the excuse of being young and dumb. People at Penn State are seemingly fully grown semi-educated professionals and in at least a number of cases have jobs and families. Children were raped. There were eye witnesses that brought this to Joe Paterno's attention. The rapist was not only not prosecuted at the time, he was allowed to continue using Penn State facilities under Joe Paterno's permission. Nothing short of Joe Paterno going to every last leader in law enforcement should have been acceptable to anyone. Again, CHILDREN WERE GETTING RAPED ON CAMPUS AND HE KNEW THEY WERE GETTING RAPED AND BY WHOM THEY WERE GETTING RAPED. He did next to nothing. And then he let it continue. For YEARS.
The man put football ahead of innocent children being ruined for life. And subsequently his sheoples also put (and continue to put) football ahead of one of humanity's most horrific crimes. And yet they wonder why everyone can't see what they see. It's like Happy Valley is full of Lance Armstrongs, and they're just going to keep it all going. It's not a lie of you actually believe it. Never mind the football program, the entire university should have been shut down.
This post was edited on 1/18 11:32 AM by Ninetynine5.0
Suggesting that the entire university should have been shut down is unrealistic and ridiculous. Thousands upon thousands of people shouldn't pay the price for one monster and a few administrators/head coach who severely dropped the ball.
Trying to figure out why you say the wins should not be taken away. I see three schools of thought. Which do you align with?
1. The games were played, the wins happened, wins should never be taken away (so calipari's final fours, or other teams that had wins vacated shouldn't have had their wins taken away)
2. Covering up child rate in order to avoid a competitive disadvantage is not the type of action that would warrant vacating wins, or
3. Never happened. JoPa is great. He knew nothing, saw nothing, and therefor had no obligation to say anything.
Which school of thought are you a part of?
Initially I didn't think the university should be shut down. But after the reaction of thousands of members of that community, you don't think there is some unhealthy sick cult mentality that should not be supported by your tax dollars?
bad things happen. Many bad things are out of one's control. It is the reaction to the bad things that often draws the criticism.
That is where I netted out on that as well. I feel like when you read Penn State alums carry on defending child rape because football is more important, it's a cult that needs to be addressed with a heavy hand. It's not at all clear what needs to happen for them to understand that child rape is more important that football. They got a slap on the wrist for what took place, and yet even that was an outrage to them. So obviously there is a long way to go here.
At this point, it would not shock me if the call for Sandusky's release started soon. I really would not.
Some psu fans claim that because (in some instances) the children were over the age of 12, it was their fault and not sandusky's. One actually called sandusky a victim in all of this.
I just can't/don't understand why these fans have an allegiance to a evil person that admitted to knowing about child rape and not only prevented it -- but enabled future child rape. It's beyond me.
Burrs - no way this is the vocal minority. I've brought this up with a lot of PSU people and they universally agree that Paterno did all he could and the university should not have been punished . The best you get here is 'well, it's a very complicated situation and lot of ambiguity about what really happens'
You seem to have a little 'nothing to see here'/ 'same small group' view on it. It's not that. Not to the people who root for their team or went to that school. Look at Cwertzie and Mainliner - still making excuses, still think they penalties were excessive and still defending Paterno and Penn State at every turn. They are typical, not the minority. Very sad group and its no wonder this went on for over a decade. But hey, they got an accessory to child rape his wins back - that's important .
You seem to have a little 'nothing to see here'/ 'same small group' view on it. It's not that. Not to the people who root for their team or went to that school. Look at Cwertzie and Mainliner - still making excuses, still think they penalties were excessive and still defending Paterno and Penn State at every turn. They are typical, not the minority. Very sad group and its no wonder this went on for over a decade. But hey, they got an accessory to child rape his wins back - that's important .
CWertz-
Would you agree that these despicable events were hidden and covered up to make sure the program was not impacted allowing those wins to occur?
Would you agree that these despicable events were hidden and covered up to make sure the program was not impacted allowing those wins to occur?
You dont see how defending Paterno's wins as more important than child raope is making an excuse? You're in deep. Better post another picture of the Lion taking a bow. It's a great day to be a Penn stater.
There is always collateral damage when major players in an organization make major mistakes. Many Enron employees didn't know they were basically a glorified Ponzi scheme, but they still suffered. It happens. And I dont but that 'most' are appalled either. I think a few might be. Most are like Cwertz and MainlinerII and Jay Paterno. Apologists and more concerned about Paterno's legacy.
This post was edited on 1/19 10:22 AM by Ninetynine5.0
Ok, fair enough. So then what? How do you address a large swatch of people that have placed football over child rape, even in the wake of overwhelming evidence? What can be done to send the right message that in the wake of dozens of kids being raped on your campus with the OK of your most prominent faculty member, defending him and his program is diametrically opposite to how a human being should react. Again, there has been very loud and very well supported and very public outcry that a few meaningless bowl games a few scholarships, and some vacated wins was too harsh.
How does a state, a nation address that when it's one of our biggest public universities?
Dmil, I don't have the answer to that. I do know that most people using logic and their brains understand that Paterno's legacy has been destroyed. Wins or no wins. In all walks of life there isn't much we can do with simple-minded people. Let the cult part of it enjoy their moment. In life, these types of things tend to even out.
For what it's worth........a somewhat logical opinion that most of the media recognizes, but, as the article states, those jealous of the previous record and reputation of the school were happy to pile on. And, since it seems that this tragic situation is nearing it's conclusion, the administrators will get their just punishments, it is a good time to end the banter on the Sandusky era.
another viewpoint
another viewpoint
What a sick and demented article.
yeah, we're jealous. That must be it. Either that or we just had a little thing about kids getting raped and Paterno not doing dick about it.