76ers off season discussion thread
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I agree with you that POR loses to a healthy LAC. 100%. That's not the topic, tho. I don't think the '12 Sixers and this year's POR team are/were in similar places. Not really at all.
For starters, Lillard is a bone-fide star. The Sixers didn't have that. Secondly, they have a plenty of space and the Sixers had none. They are in much better position to build the current roster. Every single starter for POR yesterday was 25 or under. Their oldest rotation guy was G. Henderson at 28.
Yes, McCollum. He was very good this year nearly 22 ppg and 42% from the arc. They might be able to package him for some interior scoring. Their are options there.
Back to the original point. POR making the playoffs was good for them because they are a young team, with a star, and plenty of Cap space. They can build off of it. Will they? I have no clue.
Agree. No one expected POR to make the playoffs this year. They were better than expected and some of the other teams fell-off. They are a young team, tho. They have a chance to build off of this season and Lillard is a great player. All I said is that them making the playoffs could be beneficial moving forward.
For the record, I am 100% in favor of Portland trying to build a team around guys like Lillard. Tanking is dumb. I think you know my point there.
It's just bizarre that a team that (in all likelihood) is maxed out at 4th in their own conference is getting the support of a guy that gave the same exact argument to defend the tanking. Holiday was the Sixers' Lillard at that point, and in fact an All Star at an even younger point than Lillard. The Sixers easily could've competed similarly in the East if they didn't blow the whole thing up.
Didn't the Sixers have plenty of CAPSPACE after 2013 when the Bynum contract rolled off? Isn't building a team through strong free agent signings around a young star the wrong way to build a franchise?
Holiday has at no time been as good as Lillard. If you think they are close then we can end the conversation right now. And I was a big Holiday guy, too.
Yes, the Sixers have had CAP Space since the tank started. No, they didn't have players.
I disagree that the '12 Sixers and this POR team are identical or even close. There was no star in place and very little money at that time. At the end of the day, maybe you'll be correct and they'll max-out as a 4-seed in the West. The difference between these teams is that POR is in much better position to become better, IMO. If you disagree, then so be it.
Look, this is the way I see it. I have no issue with younger teams, with a star in place, and ability to build on this in making the playoffs. I hope that some day that's the Sixers.
Furthermore, I was never calling for that team to be blown up and they weren't blown up. I thought their playoff series win was flukey, tho. I enjoyed watching them play that year. That team was pre-Hinkie and traded for Bynum that offseason (Involving Igoudala). The Bynum mess led to more changes and ultimately Hinkie.
But in hindsight, Holiday has been hurt a lot. Turner is a 4th option at best. Igoudala is a very good player as a 3rd/4th option (They would have had to pay him like 16-18 mil per year during a much lower CAP number). Young is a nice rotation guy on a decent team, but really hasn't done anything out of the ordinary since leaving.
Didn't hear it. Why would the press be mum on anything? Not sure that makes sense.
Holiday through 4 years:
13.4 pts per (up to 17.7 his final year) 43.775% shooting, 37.575% from 3, 78% FT shooter, 3.6 rebounds per, 5.8 assist per, 1.42 steals per
Lillard through 4 years:
21 pts per, 42.65% shooting, 37% from 3, 87% FT shooter, 3.81 rebounds per, 6.25 assists per, 0.94 steals per
Lillard is the better player, sure, everyone knows that, but it's closer than you think. Holiday was only 22 and an All Star with 4 years experience who had blossomed in the right setting. As a 22 year old, Lillard and Holidays stats were nearly identical.
You're always telling us that Daniel & Ryan can't be something in the league because they are already fully developed, that the league prefers younger players with higher ceilings. So why doesn't that apply to Holiday and Lillard?
Further, I don't think I said identical, ever. At the base, the organizations are at a similar juncture. Star PG, a couple of decent assets, ceiling at maybe 4th in the conference (in the East that's arguably as high as 3rd in 2012-2013 time). Do you try to create a winner around that? Draft smartly with whatever picks each year, try to develop and acquire pieces? Or do you trade that piece away for an injured project who only played 24 games above high school level?
And why are you so optimistic on CAPSPACE with the Blazers? The best free agent of last year, who was offered what, $20-40m more by them than any other team took the first ticket out of there.
The Blazers ARE in a better situation, but the Sixers could've been in an almost identical situation had they not tanked. You can argue either way, but you can't argue BOTH ways.
Actually Portland is not in a better spot because they are in the West. The Sixers could have begun building and actually developed towards something. Especially given how bad the East is and how easy it is to improve in this god awful conference. The Heat are going from the 6 pick to probably the conference Finals in a year. (which by the way I told you would happen making that first round pick basically meaningless).
That's not quite right. Ed Davis is 26 as well.
2011-2012 Sixers rotation: 6/9 players were 25 or under.
Average age of that Sixers Rotation? 24.4 years old
Average age of the 2015-2016 TB rotation? 24.1 years old
Throw out Elton Brand and those Sixers were actually 23.5 years old on average, younger than your hippity hoppity Blazers.
Nope. Just saying that there are different regimes in play here. The team that TMJ is referring to wasn't a Hinkie-led team.
Again, the Sixers weren't tanking then. They went for it by signing Bynum and it failed. They went 14 games under .500 in a bad East in 2013.
Davis wasn't a starter. Plumlee did turn 26 in March.
Again, the Sixers didn't have a star and they had no Cap Space. Plus, they went 14 games under.500 the year before trading Holiday and then Turner/Young/Hawes at the deadline. It was a dead end. The Bynum moved killed them.
Dude, Holiday made an AS team in the east with a bad PG crop. Lilliard made the AS team in his 2nd/3rd years and was screwed over this year. He's a star! Holiday isn't. You're way off and there isn't a NBA GM that would agree with you. And I like Holiday.
I'm not optimistic with their CS availability. I'm simply saying they have it and that '12 Sixers didn't. They also have a proven star. Stop glossing over this. It's not the same. Regardless, they kept the young guys together the next year. They traded Igoudala, who they would have to sign for 16-18 million, for an AS center from the prior year. It failed and didn't work out. But they didn't blow it up then. Bynum say out the year and they went 34-48. Had no star, no space, and weren't going up.
1. They traded for Bynum, not signed.
2. You said rotation, not starter. You can break it down any way you want. The teams are within a year of each other in terms of age. You can take rotation players, full roster, weight it by minutes played. It doesn't make a difference.
3. They went 14 games under with a contract not playing that came off after 1 year. Fill that spot with a solid player and they're right back there.
1. The other two all stars were Good Rondo, and Kyrie. Not bad company? He also made it over a decent Deron Williams that year.
2. The numbers were basically identical in 2012-2013 Lillard, and they are basically a month different in age. Sure, their careers have diverged since then, but the numbers from that year say they aren't as far off as you imply. Real GM had Holiday as the 9th best PG in the league that year, and Lilliard as the 12th.
3. Once the Bynum contract rolled off and Brand, the Sixers had cap space too. Roughly 28-30m for the next season if they keep Jrue. Igoudala signed for what, 12-13m per? Leaving 15m to attract another stud? Am I wrong on the math there?
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Never thought i'd see Burrs trash Holiday like this. He was always a brilliant shining star. A franchise saver.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
"Did someone order a $15m/year stud?"
Haha, I knew you'd appreciate the CAPSPACE/Jrue Holiday rehash.
I don't think there's a magic formula here, but both teams should be doing what the Blazers are doing is my point. Find good pieces, build, draft well, try to win. It's simple, doesn't alienate the fanbase, and maybe you get lucky and make a run. The Blazers may be facing the next decade of four seeds in the west, but it's a much better option than half a decade being historically bad.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
I watched the 1990s Orlando Magic 30 for 30 last night (part of it - i lost interest). And the best part of it was the Magic GM talking about them trading Webber (#1) for Penny (#3 pick) AND 3 future #1's. He said something to the effect of "I think teams drastically over-value drafting big men". It was interesting because it seems to be true in today's game and because the guy saying it had just had and NBA legend fall into his lap the prior year.
Building an NBA franchise is such a crapshoot and constantly changing that it's not worth committing to one strategy and ruining 5 years to build the foundation. I doubt anyone would have told you that drafting un undersized PF and two lanky shooters from Davidson and Washington state is the way to build and NBA juggernaut.
USA Today did a top 5 of the most exciting playoff games in the first round.
A bunch of mid-series games in series that were eventually decided in games 5 or 6.
Why doesn't the NBA have some balls and go to a best of 3 series?
Do you think the NFL would be so popular if they did a best of 7 series and there was no climax to each round? Of course not.
Not even burrsies is watching the NBA playoffs this year, and he loves the no defense high octane style of the NBA.
A bunch of mid-series games in series that were eventually decided in games 5 or 6.
Why doesn't the NBA have some balls and go to a best of 3 series?
Do you think the NFL would be so popular if they did a best of 7 series and there was no climax to each round? Of course not.
Not even burrsies is watching the NBA playoffs this year, and he loves the no defense high octane style of the NBA.
I never called him that, but I did like him, especially since he was drafted 17-18th. Injuries have held him back since he left Philly. Still root for him. Had a really nice stretch this year, but got hurt again.
Regardless, he's not Lilliard or even that close. If someone really believes that then so be it. They're wrong.
Again, that team wasn't blown up until they went 34-48. Again, that team had no star. Again, the CAP SPACE wasn't the same. But other than that, yes, similar situations.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
I do not root for Jrue Holiday. I remember him solely as a loser who alongside Darren Collison, got his ass beat by Scottie F. Reynolds and Reggie Redding in the NCAA tournament.
Yes, traded. I misspoke. We all know on here that they traded for him.
No, I said starter and then in next sebtence said no one in rotation older than 28. Go back and read it.
How do you suggest they fill that spot left by Bynum?
Look, it doesn't matter. The Sixers weren't even tanking after 2012 season. Furthermore, it's not the same. You're wrong.
And my point is that Sixers team and the people running them didn't tank. They also didn't have star. They also didn't have silly cap space availability. They also went 34-48. It's not the same, but keep trying.
Jrue Gokiday is as close to Lilliard as Thad Young is to Draymond Green. Enough already. You sound silly.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
So their franchise was destroyed by trading for an injured big man then their franchise rebuilding strategy was to draft injured big men?
This thread is awful. The NBA has 3 elite teams, not 2. Cavs, warriors amd spurs. Any of the 3 could win. However, doesn't that speak to the point of trying to get better? Get better and build. Regardless of if you get lucky with ping pong balls you need to pick the right guys.
No one is talking about that part of it.
Also, this season there was one super elite team - GS. One elite team -- SA. Then, I'd put CLV, OKC, and LAC (If healthy) as very good.
Love the guy who keeps stats at home during games completely ignoring all the stats and #FACTS presented before him.
Average age of the starters on the 2011-2012 Sixers: 25.6 (cut out EB and you're at 24.2)
Average age of the starters on the 2015-2016 Blazers: 23.97
Average age of the starters on the 2012-2013 Sixers: 25.05
So...a year younger using starters? That makes that much of a difference between tank and no tank?
I've already presented the #FACTS on Holiday circa 2012, he was an all star, and, while I've already conceded he is not as good as Lillard, he was something you could build around and be a #3-5 team in your conference. Build with him, develop the young talent there, maybe get lucky in the draft, and see what happens; try to win. Is that such a bad option?
The end all is this: the rationale always given to The Process was that they couldn't win anything without super-mega stars. Topping out as a low level playoff team with no real championship aspirations was a bad option, leaving you in the weird, grey area. Sacrifice those years, and try to get a Duncan or an MJ and make a run for a decade.
Now, we're looking at a team who has a pretty darn good player in Lillard and a few good pieces around them, but will likely be a 4-6 team in their conference for the foreseeable future, and we are told to support that? Lillard is a fine player, McCollum had a gr8 year, and it still took two injuries to star players to get them to advance to a likely loss in the second round. Lillard & McCollum isn't beating the Curry-Green-Thompson trio, isn't beating a Kawhi-Aldridge + insert Spurs-next-star-here trio, and likely isn't going to beat whatever team Durant/Westbrook end up on. Short of attracting a star free agent (Aldridge's departure for less money last year dampens any hope there), why shouldn't they break it up and start over? Is is a perennial first or second round loss good enough now? Why wasn't it then?
I agree, but I never go unwatchable. Still, I hear where you're coming from. Compared to recent years they have been disappointing so far.
I was never discussing Hinkie's process in this thread. How does ADP say it? Oh yea, someone is moving the goal posts.
For the last time. Please, try and listen. I agree with you that they only won because of injuries to Paul/Griffin. I'm not arguing that.
Someone said, Burrs and Gdog think you should tank unless you can win a title. I do not agree with this. I have no problem with younger teams who aren't at their ceiling yet making the playoffs and getting what may be valuable experience for down the road. I offered up POR as an example. That's all I did.
You compared the 2012 Sixers to them. I don't think it's the same for multiple reasons. Now, this is where you ignoring facts comes into play.
Jrue Holiday was a nice player. He was fortunate enough to make an AS thanks to favorable numbers in a weaker EC. He was not considered a star. Damian Lillard is a star! It's a fact. Stop comparing the two. It's not close.
Additionally, I never said I didn't want the Sixers to make the playoffs that year. It was a fun season. Beating the Shorthanded Bulls was fun. They tried to build off it by trading for a center that was 20-10. It failed. So, they were stuck with Jrue-Turner-Thad and a 34-48 team. Maybe, they would have made the playoffs then we could draw a better comparison.
It wasn't good after 2013 because the Sixers went 34-48 and didn't make the playoffs like this POR team did. It wasn't good enough then because they didn't have a star player like POR does. It wasn't good enough then because the Sixers didn't have 45-50 mil in Cap Space like POR will have? Really, it's not hard to see the differences.
