End of the Confederate Flag........
- Thread starter Mainliner II
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NickleDimer
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Because it's stupid, that's why.
Except people didn't make statements expressing their opinions about issues. They used a flag over a memorial for Confederate war dead (which was put there because it was supposedly a compromise) to blame the actions of an evil murderer on a governor who had nothing to do with putting the flag there and had no legal power to remove it. Then, the confederate battle flag was used as a gotcha question to every Republican presidential candidate, and the media has made it seem like an answer like "I'm opposed to the flag, but South Carolinians need to decide this for themselves," is akin to saying "Let's bring back slavery in the South!" Meanwhile, the president from the other party doesn't have to answer for the fact that the national co-chair of his 2008 campaign was a former governor of South Carolina who cynically used the sitting GOP governor's desire to remove the flag from the state house dome to propel himself to election. Or Hillary Clinton, whose husband had campaign buttons in 1992 with the confederate battle flag as the background.
It's a sideshow. That this has gotten more attention in the media than the nine people who are dead further emboldens the next psycho who wants to cause mayhem.
NickleDimer
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Thanks for the HOT TAKE. We can't bring back the victims, but we can work towards discrediting symbols of the hatred that ended their lives.
Foye, i'm just glad you're being honest about it now - clearly this issue matters to you.
The 9 people who are dead died at the hands of a man who wanted to create a world which the confederate flag represents to a lot of people.
It's the flag of a treasonous rebellion against our country. No one thinks the flag killed anyone. The ideology behind it did though. Dylan Rooff waved that flag in pictures and went to confederate history museums.
We aren't allowed to talk about gun control after mass murders according to you because it doesn't accomplish anything. Now we aren't allowed to talk about the ideologies mass murderers devoted themselves to either. What are we allowed to try to change after mass murders in your opinion? Should we just hope people become less hateful? God forbid US politicians have to say traitors were bad
The 9 people who are dead died at the hands of a man who wanted to create a world which the confederate flag represents to a lot of people.
It's the flag of a treasonous rebellion against our country. No one thinks the flag killed anyone. The ideology behind it did though. Dylan Rooff waved that flag in pictures and went to confederate history museums.
We aren't allowed to talk about gun control after mass murders according to you because it doesn't accomplish anything. Now we aren't allowed to talk about the ideologies mass murderers devoted themselves to either. What are we allowed to try to change after mass murders in your opinion? Should we just hope people become less hateful? God forbid US politicians have to say traitors were bad
LGN, right on. These people who always want to bash all things Southern don't have a clue. It's a bunch of garbage. The most racist place I ever lived was California.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Yeah... we could do without that. I don't think we need hate group pics posted here.
I have absolutely no problem with people suggesting policy changes after a tragedy. What I do have a problem with is dishonest and cynical suggestions, like saying that people who think that we don't need more gun laws are fine with mass murder. By the way, the gun laws that people have suggested would have had no impact on any of these events, and to suggest otherwise is basically saying that adding these additional laws would somehow magically figure out what non-felons who have never been institutionalized shouldn't be allowed to buy guns. Then people bring up so-called "assault weapons" and "high capacity magazines" to which I reply with this example and the example of Virginia Tech, where single shooters caused great amounts of carnage after passing FBI background checks to buy guns that no politician in America is suggesting should be banned.
As for the confederate battle flag issue, I'm glad that it was taken down, and it should have been done in 1998, when David Beasley suggested it be removed and was subsequently beaten by a politician engaging in the same type of cynical appeal to raw emotion bullshit that's bothering me about this. A long running local dispute over a flag is the dominant news story in the country. It's unbearably stupid, regardless of your opinion of the flag. Again, when is the dynamiting of the carving on Stone Mountain?
Very glad that we have dealt with the long national nightmare that was the confederate flag on the roof of the General Lee in the Dukes of Hazzard
NickleDimer
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It's just an innocent symbol. Just a throwback uniform for flagpoles. Are you against throwback uniforms, you commies?
I'm assuming that comment is tongue-in-cheek, Foye. I have no problem with actions being taken to remove the flag from government property. But, I do have a problem if it is removed from the consciousness of society. It is an important symbol in our country's history. Tens of thousands of innocent young men died fighting for that flag. Are their deaths meaningless and only members of the Union Army's deaths count? I hope not! It's just as stupid as all the shit I got for posting a picture of what really happened on 911. Does anybody really believe if we try to hide the past it means it really didn't happen or future generations should be "spared" from images of horror so that evil can somehow be disguised so nobody is "hurt?" Isn't it good to remember the bad things that happen so we can be on guard to try to keep bad things from happening in the future? I think reasonable people would answer "yes" to that second question.
Maybe we should just hang Nazi flags on the WW2 Memorial to remember all of the innocent young men who died fighting for that flag too. What do you think?
I draw a distinct difference between Nazi Germany and the CSA. The Nazis were trying to create a new world order as the CSA was trying to preserve (very wrong) the old way of life. Generally, we tend to be somewhat forgiving if people are on the wrong side of history, like Barack Obama in the case of gay marriage. That is why I think that it is okay to honor Confederate war dead and why their flags are far substantially less offensive than Nazi flags.
Granted, I also think it is okay to memorialize the non-Nazi party members who fought and died for Germany in World War II, most of whom were conscripts.
Granted, I also think it is okay to memorialize the non-Nazi party members who fought and died for Germany in World War II, most of whom were conscripts.
Seriously Clark? The flag is extremely offensive for a few reasons, but I would say the biggest offender is it represents a time in history where it was acceptable to treat millions of people as less than human.
Slavery is just a part of it. The rape, humiliation and degradation that slaves had to go is tragic. Why memorialize that time period with a constant reminder?
Don't ban the flag for red necks who wish it was 1815. They can do what they want. But don't tell me it should be flying on government property.
You memorialize the dead because 94 percent of them didn't own slaves. Memorializing the politicians who started the war is an entirely different story.
Foye, where did I say anything about guns in this thread? I was just saying that you always try to shut down these convos after tragedies one way or another. I, overall, agree with you on guns. This is a different story though and a topic worth addressing to many Americans.
The flag is bad and I don't like the people who wave it cause they lie about what it represents to them. Sick of the semantics and BS. That's the last thing I'll say
The flag is bad and I don't like the people who wave it cause they lie about what it represents to them. Sick of the semantics and BS. That's the last thing I'll say
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Here's the best pro-flag take I heard this week:
" Encouraging open marketplaces to ban the sale of certain souvenirs that represent politically objectionable ideas is a bad precedent."
" Encouraging open marketplaces to ban the sale of certain souvenirs that represent politically objectionable ideas is a bad precedent."
I hate the side I'm on in this debate based on all almost all the responses on my side. I don't change my side but I really don't like this feeing.
To those who said we can't do two things at once - is counter that as a nation we have a short memory and forget about these things rather fast. The emotional capital was pretty strong here, and I was hoping we'd use that on something tangible this time around. Instead, we've got a flag down at a capital in a state that does nothing except have some sick golf courses and Bojangles (love them both). So while it's great that a ridiculous flag is down (it's long overdue of course), I would've much rather seen something actually impactful happen. it seems the discussion has shifted already and the country will be onto something new yet again with no progress made. Which sucks.
To those who said we can't do two things at once - is counter that as a nation we have a short memory and forget about these things rather fast. The emotional capital was pretty strong here, and I was hoping we'd use that on something tangible this time around. Instead, we've got a flag down at a capital in a state that does nothing except have some sick golf courses and Bojangles (love them both). So while it's great that a ridiculous flag is down (it's long overdue of course), I would've much rather seen something actually impactful happen. it seems the discussion has shifted already and the country will be onto something new yet again with no progress made. Which sucks.
That's what we do best. Overreact and lose our shit for a few days and by next week back to obsessing over a kardashian. Rinse repeat.
NickleDimer
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. Like what? What would have been an appropriate policy change or societal change in direct response to this crime? Hate mass murder sentencing guidelines? Anti-Hate mass murder PSAs? A beer summit?
exactly. We did nothing after kids were gunned down by someone with mental illness. Nothing changes in regards to guns and it's sad. We allow people to take these dramatic positions on each extreme that the sensible center, where most who can actually think and use common sense, get crowded out from getting even minimal things done. But hey, the flag is coming down. Which is at least a small symbolic step.
NickleDimer
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What's more important? An opportunity for meaningful social change or finding out more details about the lady who blew prisoners and gave them hacksaws so that they could escape? You made the right choice, America.
This call to do something sounds interesting.... A new approach to mental health in this country sounds to me like more big government . Gun control is a non starter. So not to go all tjc and ask for specific plans, but what is the big something you all want done?
And why such consternation over the flag debate happening now when it is actually relevant since its a symbolic embodiment of the hate and ideals this piece of schit embraced. If its not appropriate to address that now.. then when? Is removing it going to be a panacea that ends racism and cures our society of people like this dude? No.. but maybe once and for all we can get beyond the BS semantics game about what that flag represents and leave it in museums where it belongs.
And why such consternation over the flag debate happening now when it is actually relevant since its a symbolic embodiment of the hate and ideals this piece of schit embraced. If its not appropriate to address that now.. then when? Is removing it going to be a panacea that ends racism and cures our society of people like this dude? No.. but maybe once and for all we can get beyond the BS semantics game about what that flag represents and leave it in museums where it belongs.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Don't become an idealist. TELL ME MORE ABOUT HOW SHE HID HACKSAW BLADES IN BROWNIES!!!
I love the idea about having a real conversation about mental health reform. But I have a problem with automatically equating deliberate hateful acts with mental illness.
Background checks would seem to be a very simple and common sense starting point. Who, outside of the NRA, is against strengthening how we do background checks to purchase something that is designed to kill? Assault weapons ban. Why in the world do we sell kits that can be bought at Walmart to make a weapon an assault weapon. Why do sell assault weapons period? If we're talking about sport or protection who needs an assault weapon? These seem like issues that 75% percent of people can agree upon. And if it's not 75% it's certainly over 50. Some simple, common sense reforms. Why not start there. We have to start somewhere right?
Question, what does a new approach to mental health mean? We need to do that in this country but let's back up for a moment. Please explain what specifically you mean by that very broad talking point in regards to gun control?
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
How the f*ck will me and my militia fight off a potential oppressive government regime without assault weapons?
What next? Outlawing locks on doors so that Uncle Sam can quarter his soldiers in our homes as he pleases?!
I'm asking you for the answers since this is the opportunity to do something more than take down the flag.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Modern political rhetoric tactics 101. Explain details of your point so i can pick one of them apart and discredit you.
Ncaaball did it better - a true talent. It's a shame that he's just a burnout now.
I provided some very simple first steps above. See a few posts up. Then I'll appreciate what you mean by a new approach to mental health sounds like too much government.
Serious question. Why do everyday run of the mill gun deaths not draw the ire of the anti gun lobby? Why does it take one loon with a crazed agenda who commits mass murder?
He killed 9 people which is horrific. But how many others died that day due to guns from armed robberies, domestic violence, gang violence, etc? I'm guessing a few hundred. Never a peep from these people. Only hear them after a school shooting or some crazed mass shooting like this.
He killed 9 people which is horrific. But how many others died that day due to guns from armed robberies, domestic violence, gang violence, etc? I'm guessing a few hundred. Never a peep from these people. Only hear them after a school shooting or some crazed mass shooting like this.
background checks and banning "assault" weapons is a starting point. sure. but it accomplishes nothing.
literally, the only way to prevent people from getting killed with guns is to stop producing all guns, and go out and round up every freaking last gun out there and smelt them all down. nothing short of that will succeed. nothing. if you think otherwise, you're not being honest with yourself. .
literally, the only way to prevent people from getting killed with guns is to stop producing all guns, and go out and round up every freaking last gun out there and smelt them all down. nothing short of that will succeed. nothing. if you think otherwise, you're not being honest with yourself. .
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Those are good steps, but most recent mass-murderers did not use what would qualify as assault weapons and they would have passed a background check. The cat is out of the bag with guns. There are millions and millions out there and plenty of violent media (and govt policy) that reinforces the myth of redemptive violence.
