Great article on tankadelphia 76ers

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:
It's a CoP thread, specifically. You brought up the Knicks for reasons no one is clear about.
#mikerizzo
#whathasdudawon
#yawn
#clockwork

Actually, someone else brought up the Knicks before I even posted. Fact.

But let's revisit our initial exchange.

You asked if this tank is going to end soon? I gave you a reasonable response. Nothing about the Knicks. But you kept at it....Saying something on the lines of, so it't going to take 5 years to get this done? A half-of-decade to get better at basketball?

How do i know how long it's going to take? I hope not, but in some cases it might take 5 years, maybe longer. Which is why I brought up the Knicks. Look at them, they have 1 playoff series win in 15 years.

I asked you specifically, what did you mean by get this done? Get what done? You have yet to answer. Instead, harping with a hurt vag because I brought the Knicks into it. Imagine that. A Knicks fan coming at me and doesn't expect something Knicks related to get thrown back. I fully admit that's what I do and always within good reason.

 

[Sportsboss_ofnothing]

These 2 are terrible when they argue.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by Sportsboss_ofnothing:
These 2 are terrible when they argue.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

Ha ha ha ha.....

Opposed to just slightly terrible when not?

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Get a rebuild done - did you really not understand such a simple thing?

Two years in, two years or more from paying off - half a decade (not including the crap year prior) - all the while embaraasing the league by OPENLY trying to be bad. Have a 2705 lbs Ebiid to show for it though. Maybe it will work.

 

[SnottieDrippen]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:
Snottie, how will one know the tank is over? If people need them to sign middling FA type then that's not happening. At least I don't think so.

When they are competing for a playoff slot tank is over I'd imagine

 

[selmore1]

I don't really get this, do people think that 5 years is a long time? That's about how long it usually takes in the NBA for a team to actually turn into a real contender. Don't really see the problem with a 5 year plan. Are people really saying that's an unreasonably long time?

 

[Sportsboss_ofnothing]

It's a long time compared to other leagues where worst to first stories are more common.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[adp98]

Give both the Sixers and Knicks props. They aren't the Phillies who took 3 years to figure they need a 5 year rebuild.

Burrs, I'll do it for you: Mike Rizzo.

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:
Get a rebuild done - did you really not understand such a simple thing?

Two years in, two years or more from paying off - half a decade (not including the crap year prior) - all the while embaraasing the league by OPENLY trying to be bad. Have a 2705 lbs Ebiid to show for it though. Maybe it will work.

So, rebuild being done means making playoffs and building off that? I'd like to see them in the playoffs by 2016-2017 and then building off of that. Basically, last year was the tear down. This is really the first year of the rebuild. Not sure if listing Embiid's weight is a shot. Is 275-lbs really a bad thing for a guy with a foot injury?

Anyone else notice how all the tank talk around the league isn't as common this year? I wonder why....

and I think they have more to show for it than just Embiid.

 

[bmoneynova]

with Amare bought out and Melo likely "shutting it down", the Knicks may not win another game all season.

 

[adp98]

When is the last time the Lakers, Knicks, Celtics and Sixers were all openly this bad? To Burrs' point: we have 4 of the league's more visible franchises openly sucking. I don't want to hear anyone slamming the Sixers strategy. They were simply ahead of the curve. You go Hinkie.

 

[qwe015]

Originally posted by obriend1:

Originally posted by qwe015:
Is there anything more wrthoess in sports than a NBA second round draft pick?

Gilbert Arenas, Tony Kukoc, Draymond Green, Danny Ainge, Isiah Thomas (current Suns guard), DeAndre Jordan, Kyle Korver, Goran Dragic, Dennis Rodman, Carlos Boozer, Chandler Parsons, Rashard Lewis, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Michael Redd, Monta Ellis, Paul Millsap, Manu, Marc Gasol, and Philly's own World B. Free and Hal Greer all would have something to say to that.

How many of these guys actually contributed to the team that drafted them?

i wasn't saying that a 2nd rounder cannot make a career in the nba, but the pick itself is pretty worthless. You don't need a second round pick to take a flyer on most guys at this level.

 

[qwe015]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:

Originally posted by qwe015:
Is there anything more wrthoess in sports than a NBA second round draft pick?

Not sure, but you should ask Dante Cunningham?

How valuable was Cunningham as a pick to the trailblazers? 15 mpg for a season and a half and then traded along with two other players and a first round pick for an aging Gerald Wallace.

And he he was actually an example of a second rounder who made it. He is a success story.

I am am not knocking second rounders and saying nine of them can pan out, but as an asset is their anything more worthless in sports than a second round draft pick in the nba? 90% of them never see 10 mpg and the ones that do pan usually do on a team that didn't draft them.

 

[qwe015]

Originally posted by obriend1:

Originally posted by qwe015:
Is there anything more wrthoess in sports than a NBA second round draft pick?

Gilbert Arenas, Tony Kukoc, Draymond Green, Danny Ainge, Isiah Thomas (current Suns guard), DeAndre Jordan, Kyle Korver, Goran Dragic, Dennis Rodman, Carlos Boozer, Chandler Parsons, Rashard Lewis, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Michael Redd, Monta Ellis, Paul Millsap, Manu, Marc Gasol, and Philly's own World B. Free and Hal Greer all would have something to say to that.

Gilbert arenas - drafted by golden state, played two seasons before leaving as a free agent and doing well in Washington.
Lance Stephenson - drafted by Indiana, struggled for three years, finally cracked double digit in scoring in yr 4 and bolted as a free agent.
Marc Gasol - drafted by the lakers, was one if another half dozen pieces (including a first rounder) traded to the grizzlies.
Kyle Korver - drafted by the New Jersey nets, sold to the 76ers for $125,000.
Trevor Ariza - drafted by the Knicks, traded along with penny hardaway for Steve Francis in a salary dump

the players ended up being good, but the picks themselves weren't very valuable. again, I'm not saying second rounders cannot make it. But as a pick they are worthless. Nobody needed a pick for Kyle korver, they just needed $125k and they could have had him. You didn't need a pick for Gilbert arenas or lance Stephenson, they were available as free agents the season after they broke out. You didn't need a pick for gasol or ariza, they wer minor pieces in multiple-player trades.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by qwe015:

Originally posted by obriend1:

Originally posted by qwe015:
Is there anything more wrthoess in sports than a NBA second round draft pick?

Gilbert Arenas, Tony Kukoc, Draymond Green, Danny Ainge, Isiah Thomas (current Suns guard), DeAndre Jordan, Kyle Korver, Goran Dragic, Dennis Rodman, Carlos Boozer, Chandler Parsons, Rashard Lewis, Trevor Ariza, Lance Stephenson, Michael Redd, Monta Ellis, Paul Millsap, Manu, Marc Gasol, and Philly's own World B. Free and Hal Greer all would have something to say to that.

How many of these guys actually contributed to the team that drafted them?

i wasn't saying that a 2nd rounder cannot make a career in the nba, but the pick itself is pretty worthless. You don't need a second round pick to take a flyer on most guys at this level.

So that's around 20 guys in the last 25 years? With 30 teams or so drafting?

 

[qwe015]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:

Ball, you bored?

yea, nothing but 2nd RD picks if you don't count the two 1st Rders he took in 2013. The two he got last year, one voted best young player in all of Europe. And the two he'll have this year. Oh yea, if MIA decides to tank and gets to top 10 this year, then it carries over to next year, if they are top 10 next year, then it's unprotective the following year when they more than likely suck. Oh yea, he also got back the 1st RDer the prior regime lost in Bynum trade. Oh yea, and those 20 2nd Rders you mentioned aren't that bad considering he already drafted two keepers in this year's 2nd RD. I like where this is headed.

So what are they actually getting out of this?

Nérlens noel
michael carter williams
joel embiid
Dario saric

and two first rounders in 2015? And a bunch if second rounders? Is this really a foundation that you think will bring titles to Philly?

 

[qwe015]

Originally posted by Sportsboss_ofnothing:
Ask Alvin Williams too.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

No, let's ask the Portland trailblazers how valuable the 47th pick in the 1997 nba draft was:
Traded along with 2 other players (both considerably more valuable than Williams at the time), a pair of first round draft picks and a second rounder to the raptors.

In other words, the 47th pick of the 1997 was a throw away piece to make salary issues work in a trade involving half a dozen other players and a bunch Of draft picks. Not very valuable at all.

The he player ended up being decent, but the pick meant nothing.

The he nba should really just get rid of the second round and make them all free agents. Better chance of the players ending up in teams that fit their skill set or the the team's needs.

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by bmoneynova:
with Amare bought out and Melo likely "shutting it down", the Knicks may not win another game all season.

Nothing to see here. The talking heads will remain silent, as the Knicks and Lakers vie for the top spot.

The he team with the worse record has only won lottery 3 times in 25 years. A team with one of the worse three records has only won it 12 times in 25 years.

 

[LizReed]

So NBA franchises in the two largest markets are now openly tanking? Not good for the league.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

There should be absolutely no reward for being bad. Especially for a market team like the Knicks, or Lakers.
I give the Lakers some leeway here of course. No team in any cap league is going to be good year after year. Trying to be bad and then being rewarded with a chance for the best player in the draft is a joke. Put all teams in this thing and spit them out. See what happens.

 

[wcburrs87]

And there should be no penalty for not wanting to waste money on fringe FAs just to win 32 games and remain irrelevant for a decade+. When the top 6-8 players make all the difference this is what you get. No other league's superstars influence the balance of power like the NBA. Also, it's been going on forever, but we live in the apex of social media and every outlet wanting to top the next guy, so all of sudden it's an issue. Yawn.

 

[wcburrs87]

Interesting read if you have a little time.

A little bit better than Ball's initial article

 

[novabball2]

im tired of sixers talk here in philly and on message boards. they arent going to be good anytime soon. reasoning: when you tank for guys like KD, Lebron, etc thats one thing. but tanking to pile up second round draft picks in weak drafts is totally different. Hinke has sold ownership he knows what he is doing, yet how many of his actual draft picks are playing?

Embiid played at Kansas for literally 15 games, is a fat 7 footer with foot injuries and surgeries. Saric has not played in America. Noel is showing he is a role player with NO offense. And if they get #1 this year they are drafting another 6'11" player in Okafur. are they gonna sit him too?

Hinke had two top 10 draft picks last year and neither will play one second in the league this year. his first rounder two years ago is just getting his feet wet. so of his 3 draft picks two number 3s and one number 10 , only one has played in the NBA. you cant sell fans on rebuilding if the players you are rebuilding with dont play.

 

[adp98]

If the Sixers hit the lottery right the next pick should be D'Angelo Russell. Perfect fit and going to be the best player in the next draft.

 

[selmore1]

Who cares if they haven't played in the NBA yet? They're not trying to win this year anyway. They took the best available guys at their pick and actually got players rated ahead of the draft slot because they wouldn't be playing this year. Other teams want an impact guy year 1. The sixers were able to use that fact and the fact that they don't care about winning, to grab 2 of the top 5 prospects. Also, Noelle is like 20 or 21, it is wayyyyyy to early to claim that he has no offense. In 5 years who knows what he'll be able to do but he clearly has the athleticism to play in the league. Will he be a back to the basket post scorer and dominate the paint, no. But he could develop a good mid range jumper and a hook shot. Has plenty of time. This year they'll have more high 1st round picks (definitely top 3 unless some other teams completely bottom out), depending on how the Heat do and should get another good young player. The real tough decisions that they'll have is who they're going to choose to keep going forward because if you take Russell than what do you do with MCW. And if you take Okafor or Towns, what do you do with Embiid, Saric and Noelle.

One thing that I think will be very stupid if they don't take advantage of, is teams that are desperate for cap room. This isn't exactly the greatest time for that as the cap will be sky rocketing in 2 years, but this is the last year where they can recoup some serious value for taking on bad contracts. I'd very much like them to be active at the deadline facilitating 3 team trades and getting draft picks. There's 0 downside to this maneuver. This is also the absolute best time to lock up guys for the future. Overpaying for good players now will turn into underpayments in 2 years so I would really like for them to start trying this offseason. I don't think they're trying to tank next year, so this would be a good time to get those middling free agents that Burrs hates because they will actually become cheap deals and you'll be able to see who's a good fit with the current players/start to build your team.

Burrs, what's your opinion on this. Do you think that they should make some free agent signings this offseason, even if they could be described as reaches? Or stay the status quo and go all in a few years from now?

 

[wcburrs87]

Novaball is as clueless as they come when it comes to the NBA. He doesn't watch it, or barely does, yet has all the answers.

On the other board when he said that he doesn't think he has EVER saw a player (Hiliard) who could shoot with such ease and score with both hands. Tells me all I need to know. He's a nice player, but seriously EVER.

And if your sick of the talk about the Sixers then don't read the thread or articles.

 

[wcburrs87]

Selmore, a couple of things. I think Russell and MCW can play together. Also, if they a lot of thing then you trade it foreshortening you need. I don't think it would be difficult. One idea I discussed with a friend is this. Make a play for Harrison Barnes will never meet his potential in GS with Curry/Thompson running the show. Think A lesser version of Harden in OKC. You do this if you have multiple post guys, because GS needs rim protection. Just an example of something that could be done in offseason or by the deadline next year.


Not opposed to signing influential FAs. Not just signing guys to say they signed one. I don't really want guys 29+, but I'd take 24-26 year olds who could grow with the rest of the team.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by adp98:
If the Sixers hit the lottery right the next pick should be D'Angelo Russell. Perfect fit and going to be the best player in the next draft.

The Sixers, no matter what the lottery deals them, will have the option to draft Russell I think. They mostly likely end up 1-2 or 3 - and he should be there in those spots, baring something crazy happening. I agree he's a good fit provided what they have drafted in the last two years.

 

[wcburrs87]

I really, really like Russell. He has sort of come out of nowhere. Not sure if that is pause for concern, but hard not to like what you see.

 

[adp98]

Dmil, Russell could go anywhere between 1-3. He'll be a better pro than okafor. Note, i'm not saying he'll get drafted before him. He should absolutely go before Towns. Doesn't mean he will. Sixers could end up with the 4th pick. They aren't tanking well enough.

 

[wcburrs87]

I think the Sixers finish with hand 3rd or 4th worst record. I see them passing those awful Lakers. With no Melo I doubt the Knicks can pass them. If Minn is healthy then they can pass the Sixers, but they play in the West. I'd be content with a top 4 pick. That more than likely gets you one of Okafor, Russell, Townes, Mudliay. Personally, in 3-5 years who knows who will be the best of that group.

 

[gldendog]

Russell makes the most sense - if you plan to keep the current core and build around MCW and Embiid. Russell would the shooter to MCW's slasher. That said, if you get #1 you basically have to take Okafor. At 2 it's a coin flip for the Sixers between Mudiay and Russell.

 

[selmore1]

ADP, just curious as to why you're so sure that Russell will be better than Okafor. I actually think Okafor is going to be really good and will be the best player from this class. Have only watched Russell play a few times and I like him alot but curious as to why you love him.

 

[wcburrs87]

I'm convinced that Okafor will be the #1 pick. I'm not convinced he's the best player from this draft 5 years from now. There are some high ceiling guys out there. Still think that Townes could better in the long run. Easily a better a defender today. I think he'll stretch his game a further than Okafor. I'm
Intrigued by a lot of these kids.

 

[SnottieDrippen]

The point of acquiring second round picks is to give your team flexibility when it comes to making. Trades. No - they won't get you a good player. But if you package a few of them along with something more attractive teams will bite.

There is more enthusiasm for the Sixers' future in Philly than there has been in years. This is undeniable - read the blogs - Liberty Ballers is one of the most active NBA team specific blogs in the country. Even on Philly.com you see the fan base ripping guys like Marcus Hayes (who still try to pander to the old grumpy men group) for their short-sightedness. The guy wrote an article about how the team should have acquired a guy like Jameer Nelson to "guide" MCW and crew. Complete idiocy.

Since Dec. 12th, they have been one of the more fun to watch and defensively stifling teams in the eastern conference. Every player on the team is tracked for stats such as Speed Of First Three Steps After a Rebound (pace), Tipped Passes, and Hands in Faces. The players have high personal expectations and are expected to improve every 10 games (straight from Brett Brown's mouth). They have not drafted a lot of shooters, but 3 PT specialists are something that can be acquired for middling prospects and for relatively cheap - think Kyle Korver or Anthony Morrow or Khris Middleton. 40%+ 3 PT shooters will be acquired when the deep playoff runs are anticipated.

They're going to be in the playoffs next year. I will put $100 on it with anyone. Two seasons with this squad and in 2014-2015 they have undeniably improved each month. Hinkie has already found veritable gems in McDaniels and Covington. He orchestrated the James Harden to Houston deal, absolutely fleecing the Thunder. I don't think the guy is god, but I believe in one thing that he believes in: the result of your decision shouldn't matter; the reasoning behind why you made that decision should.

 

[Sportsboss_ofnothing]

nickleDimer is rolling over in his grave.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[gldendog]

Can't believe he left the board after all the damn time he spent posting here (or did he leave?). Truly weird and curious. Need to pay more attention to life? Fine, post less. Or alot less. But to not post at all, ever? Obviously never really gave a sh*t about Villanova basketball. If you do you dont leave the foremost place to discuss it among the masses. Fraudulent.

 

[adp98]

Originally posted by selmore1:
ADP, just curious as to why you're so sure that Russell will be better than Okafor. I actually think Okafor is going to be really good and will be the best player from this class. Have only watched Russell play a few times and I like him alot but curious as to why you love him.

Because the NBA is not a big man's game anymore. Given the new rules a guard who can shoot and get to the rim is unstoppable. Russell is that guy. I've been on him for over a month. The kid is amazing and supposed to be a tireless worker. He's a legit 6'4, has a great handle, incredible passer, long arms and he's a dead eye/knockdown shooter. He's absolutely perfect for the next level.NBA is now a guard/wing game predicated on spacing, slashing and shooting. You can name dominant bigs on one hand. The game has simply changed so much. They don't have back-to-the basket guys anymore. Okafor has great hands/feet and I'm not suggesting he wont' be a good player. However, look at the NBA and who are the studs: they are all wings/guards. Bigs are notwstretch guys that shoot jumpers. Outside of Tim Duncan, who is 400 years old, I cannot think of a single back-to-the basket stud big? All Star bigs are guys who now shot out to 20+ feet. Bosh, Gasol, etc....

This post was edited on 2/18 7:20 AM by adp98

 

[matty17]

Russell is the guy. He is the perfect fit for the 76ers given the nucleus of players they have now. If the 76ers drop some and pick say 5 or 6 then Stanley Johnson. He is the best on the ball defender in the draft and a good not great shooter.

Towns is a superior defender to Okafor and three years from now may prove to be the better player. Love his upside.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Okafor has a skill set at 6'11 that simply does not grow on trees. While the NBA may LESS about big men today, t's not NOT about big men, (check the top of any recent draft) it is still about length. Length length length. And with his 7'4 or 7'6 wingspan (depending on whose measurement you buy, and it kind of doesnt matter at this point) Okafor's length is spectacular. Offensively, he's going to be a very very hard guy to defend. Defense is far more teachable. Most physically ready guy for the next level.

We all know that here at age 19, he's not a great defender. Should be better by now too after 9 months with K. But there is no reason to sour on this kid at all. He has physical gifts and skills no one else in this draft possesses. Not Towns. Not anyone. That's a fact. He's an underrated passer and K has raved him as a teammate. None of these things are insignificant.

Yes, I would agree that he may not end up being the best pro - anything is possible - but I suspect he will be. Also, I have read all the accolades on Mudiay - but his past year has soured me a lot, especially when you have Russell in play. It's the # 5 pick the Sixers need to jump above. Anything 1-4 is going to be ok.