Sounds like you think there is a chance the Pats choke? Did Manning not make it to the Super Bowl just last year, hence, winning the Conference Title. You sure do like to use stats for your own argument then use those same type of stats against someone else. I am the one trying to be fair here. You always killed Manning for being a great fantasy QB but facts are that is what Brady has been for most of the last decade, you cannot deny it. I give Brady a ton of credit but let's be real here. You get just a little bit of pressure on Brady, he folds rather easily, that is a pure fact that cannot be denied. This is why I think he is partially a product of the Pats system. They have a done a great job of protecting him over the years.
Peyton Manning to retire - official
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So you don't answer the question?
I don't really hold last year against Peyton. That was one of his three best years. That was much better than the year he threw five picks to Ty law.
So if brady loses next week, how will that compare to Montana losing to the bills at the same age?
And what is worse for Brady's reputation, losing next week or in the super bowl?
And no, I don't think the pats win the bowl this yr. I think the birds repeat.
I don't really hold last year against Peyton. That was one of his three best years. That was much better than the year he threw five picks to Ty law.
So if brady loses next week, how will that compare to Montana losing to the bills at the same age?
And what is worse for Brady's reputation, losing next week or in the super bowl?
And no, I don't think the pats win the bowl this yr. I think the birds repeat.
I think Montana was shot by the time he played for the Chiefs, hence, the reason the Niners let him go and went to Young. If Brady wins the Super Bowl this year and next year and does it in clutch fashion, he could possibly pass Montana. And yes, it's better to make the Bowl rather than lose in the Conference finale. I hope the Pats win it, especially if it's the Hawks. I would have no problem crowning Brady the best ever, he is likeable guy.
By the way, if the Packers win it, Rodgers will be on his way to being one of the best of all time considering it seems he has a lot of time left to play.
It really is amazing how many supposedly intelligent NFL head football coaches just don't realize this undeniable fact.
Too funny.
Hey, if you just stick with jordan and get a hand in his faces he missed a lot more shots. That is a pure fact and cannot be denied!!
Belicheck every bit as good as any coach this league has seen. Taking nothing away from Brady - guy is an all timer in every way except those Uggs and Stetson ads, but having BB has been a huge advantage for him. He's not a system QB, I suspect he would have been a HoF player with Rich Kotite - he is that good. But man, having Belicheck as HC of NEP (see what i did there Stench fans?) all this time has been a huge thing.
BB started coaching NE in 2000.
2000 NE Patriots --> 5 wins, 11 losses
2001 NE Patriots (pre Brady) --> 0 wins, 2 losses
Also, out of the last 12 seasons, Brady QB 11 of those, won division each time. Did not make playoffs the one year Brady was injured.
Brady making BB look real real smart. Every one else in the division can't wait to see how much of a genius he remains after Brady is gone.
2000 NE Patriots --> 5 wins, 11 losses
2001 NE Patriots (pre Brady) --> 0 wins, 2 losses
Also, out of the last 12 seasons, Brady QB 11 of those, won division each time. Did not make playoffs the one year Brady was injured.
Brady making BB look real real smart. Every one else in the division can't wait to see how much of a genius he remains after Brady is gone.
Brady is an all-timer but his reputation has been elevated due to early success. Guy hasn't put his team on his back to win a big post-season game in years. Past ten years they have failed as favorites too many times to count. He made his bones as the underdog early but hasn't really delivered in a while. If he doesn't blow a throw to a wide open Wex Welcker they have another Super Bowl. He wasn't great in either of those games vs. the Giants and was a Lee Evans dropped TD from losing another game at home in the Championship game. When is the last playoff game were Brady was lights out? Been a long time. He simply benefits from having a better team. The year the Pats missed the playoffs Matt Kasel led them to 11 wins. Matt Kasel is terrible.
Dan Marino was 100000% a better NFL QB than John Elway. Without question.Originally posted by CWertz:
Let me guess, this guy was better than Elway?
So winning playoff games does not matter or are you saying the QB position is not the only one on the field?Originally posted by bmoneynova:
Dan Marino was 100000% a better NFL QB than John Elway. Without question.Originally posted by CWertz:
Let me guess, this guy was better than Elway?
I've been fortunate enough to meet a few star athletes in my life. The ones I've spoken with who have championships wouldn't trade them for anything, even if they could trade it for super-fantasy stats stardom. On the other hand, guys like Charles Barkeley, would've rather had a ship than his numbers.
I'd rather be Dilfer than Marino. Why play the game if you're going to be infamous for choking?
I'd rather be Dilfer than Marino. Why play the game if you're going to be infamous for choking?
there is no MAYBE. Marino was absolutely the better player.
John Elway is one of the most overrated athletes in sports history IMO.
Marino was AMAZING from day one, best passer I ever saw. Elway came in with all of the hype and basically sucked at the beginning of his career. He always had better overall teams than Marino. You can try to say Marino "choked" in the SB but in reality his team was facing one of the greatest teams of all time. When Elway did win his Super Bowls, he had a complete team with a very good defense and an amazing running back. In fact it was an aging Elway and he was basically more of a game manager at that point in his career. I do give Elway credit for getting to a lot of Super Bowls, that takes a hell of a lot, but anyone watching would realize that Marino was a significantly better passer. And it wasn't as though Marino's teams were slouches throughout his career, they were part of the playoffs most years and often in the championship game, with teams having no defense and no running game, and without HoF wide receivers by any stretch of the imagination. He was amazing.
This is true and while some coaches are good without a QB (looking at your Bruce Arians) most are not. But some coaches are not that good even with a QB. If you think the last 13 years have been all Brady, I disagree. Every g'dman year this guy finds a way to be in the picture. You can say all you want tabout his poor division or Brady or whatever.
Every friggin year.
Again, Marino was not 100000% better than Elway. That's just a ridiculous statement, but coming from a Dolphins' fan I should expect as much.
There are other parts of the playing the position than just looking good throwing the football. I doubt Marino had some of Elway's intangibles.
There are other parts of the playing the position than just looking good throwing the football. I doubt Marino had some of Elway's intangibles.
I just said Marino was the better passer than Elway, which is utterly and completely true and not inconsistent with saying Brady is overall better than Manning. Elway could run better than the other three and was able to extend plays better than the other three. To a large extent Marino, Manning and Brady were/are reliant on pass protection, whereas Elway could improvise without necessarily having good protection.
Anyway, as an "overall" I would put Manning in the bunch with Elway and Marino. Brady kind of
has the edge on all three since he has both tremendous passing
efficiency numbers and the post season edge. Elway has very good post
season numbers but wasn't the passer that any of the other three were.
As another issue, Elway and Marino played when
defenders were allowed to defend, it's hard to say how anyone since 2000
would have played under the earlier rules.
Anyway, as an "overall" I would put Manning in the bunch with Elway and Marino. Brady kind of
has the edge on all three since he has both tremendous passing
efficiency numbers and the post season edge. Elway has very good post
season numbers but wasn't the passer that any of the other three were.
As another issue, Elway and Marino played when
defenders were allowed to defend, it's hard to say how anyone since 2000
would have played under the earlier rules.
Well, when both are somewhere in the Top 10 all-time, then there is no need for exaggerations.
And why don't you let it go? After I commented on your exaggeration, you come back at me. Jesus Christ, am I the only one that needs to let things go around this place?
And why don't you let it go? After I commented on your exaggeration, you come back at me. Jesus Christ, am I the only one that needs to let things go around this place?
Burrs - In all seriousness, good job knowing that 100000% was equal to 1000 times better. I had to go back and count the zeroes, but you nailed the conversion.
I just want to understand something here. Maybe, someone can help me out.
Here is my brief exchange with B$....I'm going to paraphrase the conversation for the sake of time.
B$ - DM was 100000% better NFL QB than JE, without question.
BUR- Dolphins' fan saying this, shocker. Maybe he is better, but not 1000 times better.
B$ - there is no maybe, DM absolutely better, JE one of the most overrated athletes in the history of sports.
BUR- DM was not 100000% better, that's just a ridiculous statement.
B$ - My God, (A bit whiny here), can't you ever let anything go; it's an exaggeration.
So, two responses constitutes me not letting something go? In a thread where posters are going back and forth way more than this?
Just trying to see what the rules are here. Do I have a different set a rules because I didn't go to Nova? Thanks for any imput...
Here is my brief exchange with B$....I'm going to paraphrase the conversation for the sake of time.
B$ - DM was 100000% better NFL QB than JE, without question.
BUR- Dolphins' fan saying this, shocker. Maybe he is better, but not 1000 times better.
B$ - there is no maybe, DM absolutely better, JE one of the most overrated athletes in the history of sports.
BUR- DM was not 100000% better, that's just a ridiculous statement.
B$ - My God, (A bit whiny here), can't you ever let anything go; it's an exaggeration.
So, two responses constitutes me not letting something go? In a thread where posters are going back and forth way more than this?
Just trying to see what the rules are here. Do I have a different set a rules because I didn't go to Nova? Thanks for any imput...
First off, I'd rank Brady as the best NFL QB of all time. That being said, he's had 3 things going for him that Manning and most other QBs have not:
1) Has had one head coach his entire career, and that coach is a HOF coach, one of the best of all-time. Manning has had a motley crew collection of ok coaches.
1b) Bellchick does whatever it takes to win: trick plays, stealing all of the defensive team's signals, etc. That obviously helps Brady a lot.
2) Brady has had a good team around him every year. If the Patriots had a mediocre kicker on their team in the early 2000's instead of Vinatiera, it's very possible Brady has only one Super Bowl win to his credit, not 3.
3) The AFC East has been quite bad for a while. Since 2002, the combined Jets, Dolphins and Bills have had two 11-win seasons and three 10-win season. The Jets have averaged 7.5 wins per year, Dolphins 7.2 wins, and Bills 6.6 wins. That certainly helps the Patriots gain home-field advantage in the playoffs. Now granted, the Patriots have won their share of road playoff games, but, for example, Peyton Manning is 2-0 at home against the Pats in the playoffs but 0-2 in the road.
This post was edited on 1/12 7:42 PM by vufjm93
1) Has had one head coach his entire career, and that coach is a HOF coach, one of the best of all-time. Manning has had a motley crew collection of ok coaches.
1b) Bellchick does whatever it takes to win: trick plays, stealing all of the defensive team's signals, etc. That obviously helps Brady a lot.
2) Brady has had a good team around him every year. If the Patriots had a mediocre kicker on their team in the early 2000's instead of Vinatiera, it's very possible Brady has only one Super Bowl win to his credit, not 3.
3) The AFC East has been quite bad for a while. Since 2002, the combined Jets, Dolphins and Bills have had two 11-win seasons and three 10-win season. The Jets have averaged 7.5 wins per year, Dolphins 7.2 wins, and Bills 6.6 wins. That certainly helps the Patriots gain home-field advantage in the playoffs. Now granted, the Patriots have won their share of road playoff games, but, for example, Peyton Manning is 2-0 at home against the Pats in the playoffs but 0-2 in the road.
This post was edited on 1/12 7:42 PM by vufjm93
Based on a lot of your admissions, not sure how you conclude Brady is better than Joe Montana. Montana had a lot going for him as well in terms of coaching and obviously teammates, especially on offense. And he generally just drilled people in the big games, and won the close ones. When it was time for a game winning drive like against Cincy in '88, he got it done. More often he just didn't f--- around and led his team on a demolition derby.
And he had far better opposing teams in conference than Brady has ever had to contend with (LA Rams had some decent years overlapping with his in division, but NFC West was always weaker than the East and Central so I'll call the division a wash), and NFC was loaded for essentially his whole career with the Giants, DC being perennial contenders, Bears having one all-time great team and several other very, very good ones, very good but dangerous teams like Philly in late '80s, eearly '90s not getting near the SB. If Montana played his career in the AFC of that time (or during Brady's career), the Niners would have won at least two or three more SBs.
Brady has lost a lot of close ones as a favorite. And since Spygate and people acknowledging the Patriots did it with more than just good luck and great coaching, he has zero SB wins. Hard to see that as a coincidence.
Even when Brady has won the SB, he has had trouble outplaying the likes of Jake Delhomme.
There are other QBs who have been better than Brady, this is just the easiest case given the parallels.
You make a lot of good points. The NFC was stacked back in the 80's, you're right that was a whole lot tougher to get to the Super Bowl than either conference in the past 13 years. (Although that was more the mid-80's; the Giants and Bears didn't get good until 84 & 85, by '88 McMahon was banged up/washed up, the Rams best QB was Jim Everett, the Redskins went through 3 QBs in 3 years from 87-89, and Jeff Hostetler won the SB.)
My main argument is Brady's career regular season record is 160-47 while Montana's is 117-47. Also injuries: Montana lost 2 full seasons and parts of a few others due to injuries. Brady's only lost one season and hasn't missed a game otherwise. Overall cumulative numbers give the edge to Brady.
On the way home from school I had WIP on and Rob Ellis and Ray Diddy were on the air. They were talking about top QBs in modern era, since '78. R Diddy's top five were Montana, Brady, Elway, Manning, and Marino. Based on hearing that Marino was a 1000 times better than Elway on this terrific newsgroup I wanted to know why Ray saw it that way. So, I sent my boy Rob Ellis a quick tweet to ask Ray why Elway over Marino. Within two minutes Rob was mentioning the tweet on air and Ray gave a reasonable explanation. R Diddy isn't the be all end all, but he is knowledgeable, fair, and has FB HOF credentials. Anyway, just wanted to share the story.
Was listening to the herd today and he is said:
Clearly Brady is better than manning. Not even a debate. But to many people, Brady is tougher to relate to. Brady is high end watches, uggs, super models and trips to Italy. Peyton Manning is mid-sized sedans, chicken parm sandwiches, and blue jeans. Middle America can relate and identify with manning, so they are always willing to make excuses for peyton. Meanwhile, they have a tougher time relating to Brady, so he is held to a different standard.
Made me think of cwertz!! Go Penn state!!
Clearly Brady is better than manning. Not even a debate. But to many people, Brady is tougher to relate to. Brady is high end watches, uggs, super models and trips to Italy. Peyton Manning is mid-sized sedans, chicken parm sandwiches, and blue jeans. Middle America can relate and identify with manning, so they are always willing to make excuses for peyton. Meanwhile, they have a tougher time relating to Brady, so he is held to a different standard.
Made me think of cwertz!! Go Penn state!!
