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Why would anyone want the jobs at the manufacturing plant you run? Why would we compete with the jobs that have been outsourced to China? Would you want your son or daughter working these jobs?

The rest of the world is developing too. We are in a late stage service economy. This is unprecedented in world history. Of course the middle class is disappearing: you can no longer be middle class if you work in a manufacturing plant. But for christ's sake stop pretending this started in 2008 and hasn't been obviously trending in this direction for decades. Sure, let's lower corporate tax rates so we can pay more people a little above minimum wage to work in your plant. That will solve everything.

I'm not saying the US's time on top is over - far from it. But if you think the solution is aiming to get things back to how they were 40 years ago then it may as well be. We have different challenges, the world economy is different, the make up of our population is different... I swear some people think our economy exists in a vaccuum. You can't just turn back the clock - it's easy to say "this used to work so why won't it now", but the environments just aren't conparable in any way
Great points, Snottie. That's why what really needs to be overhauled is the failing government education bureaucracy. We are not preparing kids for the jobs of today and tomorrow. So, kids who don't have the means to go to college have limited career opportunities. We need more training for specific careers - elderly care, paralegals, plumbers & electricians, dental assistants just to name a few. All of those fields and many more can provide good futures for lots of people! The system assumes everyone needs to be prepared to go to college. Some kids are too dumb or not motivated and others just don't want to go. Give them a chance to find a career they want and will enjoy and prosper.
 
Snottie. I don't even know where to start with a post like that. Not everyone can be a Dr. Our jobs that went to China were paying over $20 per hour and $30 for overtime with full benefits. These are good paying jobs compared to the 50% of the population that is on some sort of government assistance. Why not put that huge population to work? simple answer it doesnt fit the narrative that they run on to get elected. Some kids don't graduate high school and no matter how much money you throw at them they are still not going to graduate and go to college. Thats just a fact its not for them. So they become plumbers, handymen, mechanics etc. Why do you look down at these jobs?
 
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Why do we always assume shareholders are 1%ers? Some people actually use stocks/dividend in their retirements.

Q: Who benefits significantly more from gains in the stock market?
A: 1%ers

Dumb response but typical by dems. Very easy to fix that suggestion just require companies to use the tax break towards bringing back employees, investing more in R&D, etc etc. Its so easy but they don't want it because it doesnt fit the tax the rich narrative.

What's the f*cking point? Plan A is the govt takes the money and spends it how it wants. Plan B is the govt takes the money and tells you to spend it how you want. Ron Paul would punch you in the mouth for suggesting this.

We are not preparing kids for the jobs of today and tomorrow. So, kids who don't have the means to go to college have limited career opportunities. We need more training for specific careers - elderly care, paralegals, plumbers & electricians, dental assistants just to name a few. All of those fields and many more can provide good futures for lots of people!

Elderly care, paralegals and dental assistants are minimally skilled labor jobs. Minimal training needed with NO future. An associates degree program at best. Electrical/Plumbing are the only ones where you "own the means of production" to some degree.
 
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Okay so your solution is to reduce corporate tax rates so we can bring back these menial jobs? That's innovation right there - let's make it so that companies have to use tax break money to reverse decades of trending operations and infrastructure towards manufacturing being taken abroad. That ship sailed a long time ago.

Our problem isn't kids not being educated enough. It's the college educated who can't find work. I can be honest and say that I don't want my son or daughter working in a manufacturing plant. We should be thinking ahead, not having our goal posts aimed at taking jobs back from China. Manufacturing will become less and less dependent upon human labor - we need to figure out how we can make our citizens useful in other ways rather than try to turn back the clock. There are niches which will we need to be filled, and the only way the U.S. stays at the top is if we fill them first. The answer is not in what once made us great, but will make us great.

Please consider my points about how we are in a late stage service economy (unprecedented), the different nature of manufacturing competition, and diminishing income for executors of said competition. We've had the debate about "people being above jobs" a million times, and I don't think it's true. Private firms realized that it would be cheaper to send labor abroad and so that's what happened. If you think that a tax break which mandates that they use said money to bring those jobs back is logical (you're basically asking them to tear down decades of relationships abroad and devise new means of manufacturing, transport, and supply chain) I think you're full of hot air. You're just trying to justify lower taxes in any way possible, as if the writing hasn't been on the wall for this industry for decades. The market decided these progressions, not a liberal or conservative agenda.
 
Still not sure how lowering or changing effective tax rates on corporations equate to the hiring of more people. Know a lot of small business owners - anywhere form 10 to 100 or so employees and even they dont really hire based on their tax rate, more so on demand for their goods and services. Not sure they will say "oh look, I owe less in taxes this year - why dont we hire a few guys we were doing without this past year". Doesnt work like that. And those are the actual smaller business guys who probably know all their employees by name and care about creating jobs. That is a much different philosophy than corporations, who run things by the numbers mostly. They hire because they have a need, not because they have a favorable rate. Besides, the actual corporate tax rate is just one number - on top of so many other taxes that hamper small business.

'Corporate tax rates' are kind of a talking point phrase. We know that bigger corporations, the ones that actually have the means to outsource jobs also have the means to funnel money off shore to Ireland or wherever and be taxed less. Perhaps genuine, US based small business tax reforms are a better topic.
 
BTW what's happening now is pretty much the worst case scenario for long term economic health. Companies use 1000 loopholes to avoid taxes and do not want to pay American wages, but still use our 350M customer base to do trillions in business.
 
Lowering corporate tax rates is great.....as long as you can guarantee me that it will increase revenues to the federal government, in the short and long term, so that we can pay down that Red Chinese debt and rebuild the military that Obama has essentially destroyed.
 
ND, that is such flawed logic. If you have more money invested you certainly stand to gain more when the market goes up. However, you're missing the forest through the trees here. If you rely on that money because you have less of it and it's funding your retirement you certainly need those gains more than the 1%er.
 
I didn't say who NEEDS those gains more. But that's precisely the reason that 1%ers benefit more. The US economy has been an upward march (with a few bumps) for 70 years. Those that can risk more, gain more. They don't need to hedge their bets nearly as much.
 
ND have you ever started a company, built it, taken in public or anything of the like. Years ago it was tough, today it's near impossible. The manufacturing you speak of you have no clue about and I find that sad that you speak as if you really know something about this. These jobs are highly skilled good paying jobs that we have given away not 15 years ago but In The last 5-10 years. China is moving up the chain they started low level now our engineering etc is moving overseas. It needs to be stopped. We can do this by taking away the huge incentive to do everything overseas. Make it advantageous to keep those jobs here. Why are you so against this concept I know it doesn't fit the narrative. By the way there are no relationships in China people may believe they have them but they don't exist
 
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Let's not act like the gap between US and Chinese workers is a few bucks an hour. Manufacturers can pay labor min. wage and they still would be getting crushed on labor against China. It's not a fair fight - so saying we should lower rates and ask companies to return is unrealistic until Chinese labor increases, which, if you know about China, is not any time soon. There is no tax incentive to cover this gap. We're relying far more on a company's sense of corporate jingoism than we can ever offer in some kind of tax incentive. "Made in USA" has actually helped some businesses. I look for it all the time, and I have a neighbor who will basically only buy American unless he cannot find what he needs in a US product.
 
ND have you ever started a company, built it, taken in public or anything of the like. Years ago it was tough, today it's near impossible. The manufacturing you speak of you have no clue about and I find that sad that you speak as if you really know something about this. These jobs are highly skilled good paying jobs that we have given away not 15 years ago but In The last 5-10 years. China is moving up the chain they started low level now our engineering etc is moving overseas. It needs to be stopped. We can do this by taking away the huge incentive to do everything overseas. Make it advantageous to keep those jobs here. Why are you so against this concept I know it doesn't fit the narrative. By the way there are no relationships in China people may believe they have them but they don't exist

1. Where am I speaking of manufacturing. I think you got me confused with some other post.

2. What "needs to be stopped"? Manufacturing labor, like sh*t, rolls downhill. It finds the lowest place to go. Ain't no stopping it. You can throw tarriffs and B.S. incentives at it, but you're only f*cking yourself by delaying how you adapt to the new economic climate. The government has no business subsidizing a production process that is X times more expensive than what is available on the free market. Bigger ships, deeper and smarter ports, wider canals, better roads and rail. Support it, don't fight it.

Aside: I find it ironic that the champion of "bring manufacturing back to America", GE's Appliance Park, literally went up in flames a few months ago.
 
I literally have every desk our company installs (1,000s per month) shipped over from China. There aren't direct "relationships" with Chinese people but it's a pipeline which we rely on, and the biggest "win" my department has had for the company money-wise was switching from domestic production to Chinese production, even after shipping across the pacific and then transporting via truck in the U.S.

I just think this is the wrong battle - that's all. If you're talking engineering, high level visibility jobs I am with you. I don't see our domestic talent moving to China though. My biggest concern with US's talent is that they are realizing that they can make more money developing the next Candy Crush or Spotify or something of that nature rather than applying their talents somewhere more lasting and impactful. If we are to use tax money anywhere, I'd prefer it to be creating well paying jobs for those programmers in sectors that need it. But once you involve the Government things get messy.
 
ND, speaking of the future. I hope your house situation and pending arrival are going well.
 
The wealthy Chinese send their kids to schools in the US and now they don't stay here they go home. They pay cash for college no Financial aid and go Ivy League. Take a look at the demographics at Harvard. You guys are closing your eyes to the real issue here. They are now skilled so those skilled jobs you speak of are going to China in the last 10 years they have been executing on their plan to be a major power. We let it happen. I am there at least 8x a year they laugh at us. Call the American worker lazy. Just waiting for a handouts.
 
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The statistics on Harvard do not support your argument. In fact, wasn't harvard just taken to court for holding Asian admission down??

Over the last eight years Asian students have comprised between 17.6% and 20.7% of students admitted to Harvard. Though the number of Asians applying for admission has increased, the percentage of offers has barely budged. In 1992, 19.1% of Harvard’s admissions offers went to Asian applicants, compared to 25.2% who were admitted to the California Institute of Technology, a school that doesn’t use racial preferences. In 2013 Harvard made 18% of its offers to Asians, while CalTech admitted 42.5% Asian students.
 
And why is the American worker 'lazy'? Beause they refuse to work for 5 dollars a day? How many people do you know working 60 hour weeks? 70 hours? I know many many people working very hard. Many young people as well.
 
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If our manufacturing is eliminated we are going to rely on potential enemies for all of our goods. That makes us vulnerable. Our industial might helped us win both world wars. And it isn't just bombs and planes that we need in crisis. Uniforms, tents, boots, prepared/preserved food, packaging materials, etc., etc.

To Snottie: You shouldn't want your kids in low-level manufacturing jobs (there are/were good jobs too) since you are upper middle class an attended a college that costs over $200k over 4 years. But if you were uneducated and impoverished, you would likely want your kids to find work like manufacturing. The alternative to these jobs is not engineering or nursing, it is illegal drug sales, welfare, poverty, etc. You were born two-thirds of the way up the ladder - that's why you aren't concerned about some of the lower rungs being missing.

The massive pollution from 3rd world manufacturing is another problem. Greedy companies don't just move manufacturing jobs to Asia for cheap labor - the lax environmental regulations increase profits too.
 
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adp right now automotive.

ND thanks for making my point those statistics are staggering

The lazy comment comes form government assistance they believe people should work not just sit at home and collect a check. In the Chinese culture that is not acceptable. I have been going to China for years and it has changed. They use to pump out product without much concern for quality control now they have trained professionals at every level. Lots of automation. On top of that the friendly banking that is available to support production, R&D, growth is unheard here in the US.
 
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ND, speaking of the future. I hope your house situation and pending arrival are going well.

Thanks, brother. All is going well so far. Might name Dimer III after you.

The wealthy Chinese send their kids to schools in the US and now they don't stay here they go home. They pay cash for college no Financial aid and go Ivy League. Take a look at the demographics at Harvard. You guys are closing your eyes to the real issue here. They are now skilled so those skilled jobs you speak of are going to China in the last 10 years they have been executing on their plan to be a major power. We let it happen. I am there at least 8x a year they laugh at us. Call the American worker lazy. Just waiting for a handouts.

Are you reading talking points directly from the Blowhard Manifesto?

My recent experience with Chinese colleagues and college students does not match this at all. Most international students come here for the best education and want to stay here and work for the best companies. Most return to China (or wherever) for the following reasons:
1) cushy crony job is waiting for them
2) couldn't assimilate to culture and got homesick
3) couldn't get a job
Very few fall into the mystical "going home with my degree to make my homeland a global power".

1) If our manufacturing is eliminated we are going to rely on potential enemies for all of our goods. That makes us vulnerable.

2) if you were uneducated and impoverished, you would likely want your kids to find work like manufacturing.

3) Greedy companies don't just move manufacturing jobs to Asia for cheap labor.

1) The best point yet in this thread about why to subsidize US manufacturing. Old people will eat this up. The one weak point is that we still make all the good weapons here.

2) It's a myth that impoverished people don't know that education is the key to a promising future. They know it, but just don't have the experience, structure and knowledge of how to get there.

3) Yes they do.

adp right now automotive.

ND thanks for making my point those statistics are staggering

The lazy comment comes form government assistance they believe people should work not just sit at home and collect a check. In the Chinese culture that is not acceptable. I have been going to China for years and it has changed. They use to pump out product without much concern for quality control now they have trained professionals at every level. Lots of automation. On top of that the friendly banking that is available to support production, R&D, growth is unheard here in the US.

1) Are you Lee Iacocca?
2) What point did I make? Are you confused, Lee?
3) Happens everywhere. Manufacturing processes and quality control has improved greatly everywhere over the last 20 years, old timer.
 
If our manufacturing is eliminated we are going to rely on potential enemies for all of our goods. That makes us vulnerable. Our industial might helped us win both world wars. And it isn't just bombs and planes that we need in crisis. Uniforms, tents, boots, prepared/preserved food, packaging materials, etc., etc.

To Snottie: You shouldn't want your kids in low-level manufacturing jobs (there are/were good jobs too) since you are upper middle class an attended a college that costs over $200k over 4 years. But if you were uneducated and impoverished, you would likely want your kids to find work like manufacturing. The alternative to these jobs is not engineering or nursing, it is illegal drug sales, welfare, poverty, etc. You were born two-thirds of the way up the ladder - that's why you aren't concerned about some of the lower rungs being missing.

The massive pollution from 3rd world manufacturing is another problem. Greedy companies don't just move manufacturing jobs to Asia for cheap labor - the lax environmental regulations increase profits too.

Is this a joke? Attacking me for admitting I wouldn't want my kids doing it like you aren't in the same boat? Just because I admit it doesn't mean I don't recognize why or who these jobs typically go to - the point is they aren't jobs Americans aspire to.

Those families you are talking about - uneducated and impoverished - they don't want their kids ending up working in manufacturing either you know. In your mind you seriously believe that people are born into these low level jobs and just accept their place in life below us. Remarkable.
 
Also: the alternative to working in manufacturing plants isn't drug sales/welfare/poverty. It's low level service jobs. Delivery men, restaurant workers, call centers, etc. Poor people are more educated today than they ever have been. Let's not demean poor people and say all they do is accept welfare or deal drugs - and then talk to me like i've never met a poor person cause i went to nova
 
ND: I agree 100 percent that most patents know the key to success is an education. But there are obviously limitations on that. Some kids just don't have the academic aptitude. It also tends to take a couple generations to climb the ladder.

Manufacturing jobs aren't going to be dream jobs for almost anybody but they would be a huge asset in some of these wastelands where the primary economy is the drug trade. Look at places like Kensington (CoP), Chester or Camden. These places became impoverished war zones when the manufaturing jobs left. Even the government knows that the solution to the problem is not sending all the residents to college (obviously not feasible) so they encourage service jobs like casino employee, stadium work, etc.

ND, our best bombs are made here. In fact the Berry Amendment requires the Department of Defense to only use their funds to purchase American products (occassionally, the govt is a step ahead of us). But in crisis, such limited manufacturing to be difficult to ramp up.

As I said, jobs are not sent overseas only for cheap labor. They are sent there to cut costs. Labor is a large part of it. Environmental regulations, tax issues, access to inexpensive raw materials, etc., all play a part.
 
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Can you imagine smog like this in the US today? It is had to compete with manufacturing at 3rd World standards.

la-china-smog10.jpg
china%20smog%202013%20TV%20bldg.JPG
 
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These are the good parts of China. Have a buddy who goes there all the time for manufacturing - says if you really want to see a shithole, try the outer suburbs that only make one thing. Squalor. Also, they are in the process of adopting their own version of welfare right now, which is going to look pretty familiar to us when it's all said and done.
 
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I like to call myself experienced old seems kind of harsh. When I hit 50 maybe that will change. Look when you build more than one company from the ground up you can talk all you want about what it takes. I have first hand experience with some of the wealthiest families in China that is where my information comes from. Not some kid who sat next to me in class. China is leading the way in major manufacturing. For example every LCD is made in China, Most all computer products and accessories, there are making a huge push to take over automative manufacturing and aircraft manufacturing. They recently bought Volvo. They also recently entered into a joint venture with Suzuki. We have fallen behind and the gap is widening. You can stick your head in the sand with your I know everything attitude because you graduated from college or deal with the realities. We don't have to bring it all back home but we need to bring some of it back.

So understand this, the Chinese in the future don't want to just manufacture for US companies they want to make their own products and compete against them. Now that they have an educated workforce this will soon be the reality. I have a buddy who is a well known custom motorcycle designer they are offering him boat loads of money to live there and design a new line of motorcycles to compete with Harley. The next 5 years we will see major changes out of China.
 
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I like to call myself experienced old seems kind of harsh. When I hit 50 maybe that will change. Look when you build more than one company from the ground up you can talk all you want about what it takes. I have first hand experience with some of the wealthiest families in China that is where my information comes from. Not some kid who sat next to me in class..

th
 
I'm enjoying the evolution of this thread. We've gone from presidential discussion to TJC's genocide predictions to a blowhard bloviating about his corporate bootstrapping in Asia. Let's get back to the topic at hand...

Updated rankings: (prior)
1. Donald Trump
1a. Jeb Bush (9) - Americans love a familiar face
2. Chris Christie (6) - takes guts to don baseball pants at 350 lbs.
3. Ronald Reagan (10) - showing signs of life
4. Rick Perry (8) - more corporate handouts than you can shake a stick at
5. Scott Walker - drove his pickup truck through a union pickup line this week
6. Ted Crux (3) - trash talking a mourning father
7. Xi Jinping (n/a) - manufactures all of our LCD screens
8. Bill Cosby (n/a) - taking minorities and women to task since 1958
9. John Kaish (n/a) - moved up on potential handling of a championship riot in Cleveland
10. Rick Santorum (2) - has booked enough pro-life conference speaking engagements to support his family for the next 4 years

dropped out:
Ben Carson (1a) - phew, that was tough pretending to like him for a few weeks
Laura Bush (8) - her naval reserve record has come into question
 
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You are in for some real life lessons son. My advice don't think you know it all and learn through your experiences. Those experiences will guide you both in your investments and in your business decision making. If for a second you think you know it all you will not make it very far in your career. You can choose not to listen I am only trying yo be helpful. I would also get rid of the crappy know it all attitude as well.

Probably need to add Marco Rubio to your list
 
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You are in for some real life lessons son. My advice don't think you know it all and learn through your experiences. Those experiences will guide you both in your investments and in your business decision making. If for a second you think you know it all you will not make it very far in your career. You can choose not to listen I am only trying yo be helpful. I would also get rid of the crappy know it all attitude as well.

Probably need to add Marco Rubio to your list


th
 
MULTIQUOTE LIGHTNING ROUND!


Q: Who benefits significantly more from gains in the stock market?
A: 1%ers



What's the f*cking point? Plan A is the govt takes the money and spends it how it wants. Plan B is the govt takes the money and tells you to spend it how you want. Ron Paul would punch you in the mouth for suggesting this.



Elderly care, paralegals and dental assistants are minimally skilled labor jobs. Minimal training needed with NO future. An associates degree program at best. Electrical/Plumbing are the only ones where you "own the means of production" to some degree.
You couldn't be further off base with that response, ND. It's a basic law of economics that money follows demand. Let's take elderly care as the penultimate example. As the population continues to age, there will be more and more demand for workers in that field. More and more demand means employers will have to pay more and more to attract employees. Your cynical outlook also doesn't take into account that as a person gains more and more expertise in a given field it increases ( but certainly doesn't guarantee ) that they may decide to open their own business and become an employer instead of an employee. That's how our country has always pulled itself out of bad economic times until the current so-called "recovery." If we don't modernize and streamline the education system which is failing miserably, kids are left with two choices to try to compete for a meaningful and economically secure life. 1) Try to go to college. 2) Drop out of high school and be condemned to a low wage service job or pursue criminal activity which for many is perceived to be a course of action to achieve wealth/success. Since only 34% of the population has a college degree, we can all see where this is headed if we don't take corrective action soon. We desperately need the third choice of technical training for both current and new/innovative employment opportunities.
 
Piper, This is my favorite d*ck waving incident on here in recent memory. Thanks for the lecture, you old blowhard. Your narrow set of experiences don't make you all-knowing either.

Marco Rubio is not even the best candidate to come out of his own state.
 
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