NBN, Jordan didn't win $hit until his 8th season when Bird broke down, the Pistons imploaded, the Lakers got old and his teammates got better. However, we all forget as much. He played with multiple HOF'ers in Pippen and Rodman in the 2nd run.
NBA Playoffs
- Thread starter NovaHoops2002
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Actually, it was his 7th year. You're right, tho. Those Celtics, Pistons, and Lakers teams were chopped liver back then. Definitely not as good as those Atkanta Hawks.
One thing I don't forget is him standing around in bizarre fashion like James did versus Dallas. While he got plenty of help from Wade and Bosh that year.
Scottie Pippen finished 3rd in the MVP voting in Jordan's only full season playing baseball. There seems to be some re-writing of history here. Pippen was one of the top 5 players in the game while playing with Jordan. To suggest otherwise means you didn't watch or mis-remembered.
Teams? One team. And they didn't make it out of the second round either. Well, after Jordan paved the way, demanded excellence, showed them how to win, etc it carried over on some level. Also, I think that was the first year Kukoc came over.
C'mon - you cannot give credit to Jordan for a team he abandoned. That's ridiculous. Even the team the following year was nowhere near a lottery team either.
No, Pippen was very good and elite in some of those years. He was first team All-NBA in 94-96. Just happened to be two of the years Jordan stepped away. I guess despite being a top player it wasn't that easy to lead a team to a title. Pippen was still young in '91 and injured a lot in '98. Oh yea, it's not like Jordan sought out Pippen. You know like Wade/Bosh.
Let's just get back to Pippen for a moment. Many considered him the 2nd best player in the league during their title runs. He was all NBA. And in his prime. Again, the one full season Jordan left he finished 3rd in the MVP. Burrs seems to have forgotten all this. The Jordan idol tour seems to have caused a case of the Andy Petitte's.
Why not? Jordan demanded excellence and it carried over. They won 3 titles and that goes a long way. Just like James is demanding his teammates defend now.
What are you talking about? I just said he was elite in some of those years. All-NBA 1st team 3 times. Two of those years were the years Jordan retired. Couldn't lead the team out of the second round. Yawn. Great player, but we all know who had the ball when it mattered most.
ADP, as of today, greater player all time? Jordan or James?
Couple of numbers for context: Lebron has more rebounds in two games than Jordan had the entire 93 finals series. Lebron has already won 114 playoff games (60 L's), Jordan won 120 (60 L's) his entire career. We all have this romantic mis-remembering of how Jodran struggled to win early in his career. Burrs was probably 10 so he just remembers the highlights. Lebron wins this year, and I strongly doubt it happens, the entire GOAT debate takes a huge turn and Lebron has a good 5-7 years to rack up rings.
5-7 years? Playing at this level? That might be a stretch. He's been in a lot of battles that have surely taken their toll on his body.
Jordan had 51 rebounds in '93 finals. He also shot 51% from the field on 199 shots. Averaging 41 ppg.
Jordan had 51 rebounds in '93 finals. He also shot 51% from the field on 199 shots. Averaging 41 ppg.
He doesn't ned to play at this level. He just needs to get more rings. He keep winning and all his career numbers will surpass jordan's. Again, Jordan did not have the same early success as James. We forget Doug Collins getting fired, everyone saying Jordan can't win because he's a ball hog etc.mm and that's fair because most of you guys-us here couldn't even drive at the time. It's natural to forget these things and just remember the wins. Burrs, I got the year wrong on the finals. I'll look it up later but it was one of the ones that went 6. Maybe 98 vs Utah?
James made two finals (both losses) before Jordan got to his first. However, both win their first title in year seven and at age 27. Furthermore, once Jordan got there he didn't lose unless he walked away. That counts for something, too.
Most young players lose early on. Not winning a title at the outset isn't some sort of black eye.
Most young players lose early on. Not winning a title at the outset isn't some sort of black eye.
Fair enough. I think the same age thought is debatable, but not out of the question either.
Getting a team of nothings to a final and losing to the spurs isn't a black eye either. Getting this injured group and making this competitive is a plus regardless of how it ends. The standard for Lebron is simply different. Take last night. Steph Curry is the reigning MVP and was awful, like terrible. We don't talk about that but folks still bitch about what Lebron didn't do when he has this group returning to Cleveland from a place a great golden state team has gone 47-3 this year. It's nuts. People like you say the number one reason the series is tied is because of something other than Lebron. It's crazy talk. All of it. The guy has never gotten his due. And he acts like a prima Donna out there so I get it.
I agree that losing to SA early with CLV isn't a criticism. However, in 09 & 10 they combined to win 127 RS games and were clearly the favorites to come out of the east, but they came up small. And James had another bizarre moment in losing to BOS.
Of course, the standard is different. We're talking all-time great here. It comes with the territory. Not hard to understand. No one is calling Steph Curry at this point an all-time great. I've said this a long time ago, but when you're discussing greatest ever, then everything gets scrutinized.
Look, James is the best player in the world. So naturally it doesn't have to be said that he's a huge part of what CLV is doing. However, in my opinion, the team defense they are playing is the #1 reason through two games these series is competitive. I'm not sure you're aware of how efficient GS was this year. The game last night was GS least efficient game in the playoffs. And their third worst this year. That is due to exceptional team defense. Again, CLV was the first team to win a finals game shooting as poorly as they did. That speaks volumes to their defense.
Sure it does. Guess who is their most important defender, Lebron. It all comes back to Lebron. You have to be insane to argue he's not the most important reason Cleveland won a game in Golden State. Without him they are with the Sixers praying for ping pong balls. Crazy talk, crazy. You should be better than this. Jordan was the best yet but you're missing it with LeBron. That's too bad because you love sports and should get what he's doing out there.
So then you understand he's reasons 1-5 why Cleveland in this series. You see how your two statements, that you understand what you're watching, and then arguing Lebron is not the single more important reason Cleveland has a chance; doesn't match up right? Those two things cannot be true. You know what you're watching or you don't. Saying it's not Lebron but the defense means you don't get Lebron's greatness on both ends and why Cleveland would be losing to Golden State by 30 without him.
Jesus Christ.....just shut up and let it go.
No matter how much you believe it he can't do everything, especially on the defensive end.
Anyway, from a player standpoint he's obviously the biggest reason. Thanks for sharing that as it was unbeknownst to me. From a team standpoint it's their defense. He's not guarding all five guys at once. In fact, he's not even guarding Curry/Thompson.
Everybody understands Lebron has to be great for them to have s chance. But in top of that the entire team has to defend well. And they have.
Despite Janes' crazy numbers the Cavs really haven't been good on offense, but they have been downright terrific in the two games defensively. We'll see if it holds up.
Burrs, I've got to say of all the people I might disagree on a subject, especially one you are so obviously biased and wrong, you are a good egg in my book. This was fun. I will rest my case...until the next game. tomorrow night I've got a work dinner that will keep me late. My hope is to get it done and get home by 2nd Q. We'll continue this on Wednesday.
I bet several people $100 apiece on this series b/c they're too stupid to know that Cleveland was a better than 2-1 dog. If you wanna give me something at 1-1 that is really 2.5-1 I'll take my chances any day of the week. That said - I felt myself pulling for Lebron this last game. I almost want to see him pull this off single handedly b/c it would be so amazing. Almost. I like money better than I like a cool story. Those only go so far.
Money comes and goes. LeBron pulling this off would be historic. Just keep betting the over on Lebron's total points each game and you have a hedge. I'm stealing money on that prop. Last game was 33.5. They can't make it big enough.
It's not 'just like James is demanding his teammates defend now' - because James is ACTUALLY A TEAMMATE. Sorry but this is utterly ridiculous. It simply does not work like that. Giving MJ credit for 55 wins on a team that he left in lurch and played zero minutes. Gimme a break. What you are unwilling to concede is that the rest of the Bulls were really friggin good - good enough to win a lot of games without Jordan. He was nothing but a distraction and a quitter to that team.
For the record, in the one team sport where a single star makes the greatest difference, Burrs conceded the point on Lebron.
Dmil, it's a crime the way Bettman has killed hockey. NBC Sports for the Cup Final - awful. Great game.
Dmil, it's a crime the way Bettman has killed hockey. NBC Sports for the Cup Final - awful. Great game.
The 96 and 97 bulls were a perimiter oriented team which fed off the NBA reducing the 3 point line to college distance from 95-97. Obviously everyone shot from the same distance but Jordan shot 40% from 3 those years then went back down to 25% in 98. They still would have won the finals but jordan is one of the biggest benificiaries of circumstance - and that's okay! It takes a lot to win a championship. MJ needed help and the right situation to have that crazy dominant stretch. The 90s may have been the thinnest talent wise era since the 70s. Expansion teams in charlotte, minnesota, miami, orlando, toronto, and vancouver plucked bench and low level starter talent from teams throughout the league throughout jordan's run and there was a long adjustment period for the league. Even though teams like Orlando succeeded early, the bottom line is there was the same amount of talented players in the world playing for more teams - thinner by definition. Lebron needs the right situations to succeed as well. I'd say they are pretty equal pieces if you're building a team. MJ is better at closing out a game without a doubt, but LBJ may be superior in terms of putting you in the position to win in the first place - that counts for something. The biggest flaw in James' resume is 2011 vs the Mavs. Jordan doesn't lose that one. Regardless of all this, and i know Burrs appreciates lebron for what he is when it comes down to it, watching both of them play is a spectacle unmatched by any other athletes except for Gretzky imo. There may be other guys from the past on the level of those 3 but i never watched them.
Blatt's staff has identified the best way to defend curry - outright ball denial which Dellavedova is executing as well as anybody. It's just pure effort on his end and because curry isn't a speed demon it's possible to deny him the ball where he wants it. Once he's dribbling it's a different story but Delly is preventing him from doing that a lot. Charlotte is probably going to overpay him cause jordan thinks he's a gamer but he's just the right fit for these situations. He had crazy numbers at St. Mary's too - he's not a dog out there.
Blatt's staff has identified the best way to defend curry - outright ball denial which Dellavedova is executing as well as anybody. It's just pure effort on his end and because curry isn't a speed demon it's possible to deny him the ball where he wants it. Once he's dribbling it's a different story but Delly is preventing him from doing that a lot. Charlotte is probably going to overpay him cause jordan thinks he's a gamer but he's just the right fit for these situations. He had crazy numbers at St. Mary's too - he's not a dog out there.
Agree, not a dog. Also doesn't start and would struggle to be a rotation guy on any of the Bulls winners. And by overpay, you mean he might get a 4 year 12-16 mi deal. He's a non-drafted guy playing because Irving got hurt.
The Bulls team that lost to DET in '89 was a juggernaut on paper. Pippen and Grant were pups and certainly not anywhere near what they became. Jordan was out there with the likes of Cartwright, Craig Hodges, Brad Sellers, Charles Davis, Sam Vincent, and Paxson. Cmon.....
adp I know you were too young to really remember, but the suppoting cast on Bulls teams during the first threepeat were nothing to write home about. Pippen and a bunch of medicority. That said, if James gets it done with this crew, it will be more impressive. He's got no help on offense outside of a couple standstill shooters. Amazing what he's doing.
Dan, I turn 40 in august. I remember those teams well. I also remember the first years where Jordan won nothing. Jordan took a lot longer to figure it out than Lebron. Lebron was a much smarter player from the onset.
James won nothing, too. His first title came in same amount of years and age as Jordan. And once Jordan won it didn't stop until he walked away.
How smart was James in the Dallas series? You know when he hand picked two of the top four PER players in the league and stood in the corner while they did more than their fair share in the series? How smart was he when 127 win Cavs teams, who were overwhelming favorites came up short? You know before he walked away and quit on that organization. Came up short to one team with Rafer Alston starting in the backcourt. Or, his disappearance act against the Celtics? How smart was he last year when his team was bushwhacked in historic fashion?
Look, what he is doing with this crop is special and again he's an all-time great. These things aren't being disputed. However, ADP talking about what Jordan didn't do early really is comical. James for being in the conversation of GOAT has had some serious head-scratching moments. Be fair and point these out when your blasting Jordan for not beating other great teams of that era.