Great article on tankadelphia 76ers

[gldendog]

Originally posted by NickleDimer:

Originally posted by gldendog:
The Sixers won basically no games with Wroten running the team, like 2-15 or something for the year when he sits and routinely PLASTERED in the games.

Gr8 analysis, slugger. In the SIX games that Carter-Williams missed to start the year, the Sixers went 2-15.

Oh yeah because he hasnt missed any games at all since then. You really did go off the reservation. Feel free to go back if you're gonna compare Tony Wroten - who you said sucks 8 million times - to Carter Williams. Carter Williams rebounds like a savage, plays very good D and is actually a good passer. Imagine that. Wroten does not one of those things well. Other than that - same player.

 

[gldendog]

He's started 38 games. Team has played 53. Team is 2-13 in games he doesn't start. Sorry I was way off from the 2-15. Carry on.

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by adp98:
Burrs, are picks based on where you finish the regular season or playoffs? I thought it was playoffs. If so, the Miami pick could be much later than 15 as could the OKC pick. Both teams got a lot better and could win a few playoff series. Especially Miami in the East.

Based off RS results.

 

[selmore1]

ADP, after looking at last years draft order, I'm about 99% sure that it goes by regular season record for draft order outside the lottery. And Burrs, I think we're pretty much in agreement about alot of things with the main difference being that I'm alot more worried about what's going on than you. Alot of people are just dismissing MCW but that's not only not fair, it's not true. By 1 good metric he was the 2nd best defensive pg in the NBA. And that's in his 1st 1.5 years. His offense is awful but that would have improved as he got better with the team but it's hard to say how much better. Regardless, he was a nice piece and was not a hindrance to rebuilding process. Now they're just going to cross their fingers and hope they get lucky? Seems wrong. And in regards to McDaniels, unless there was something going on behind the scenes, letting him go was an absolutely horrible move. Yes, he would have had to get paid but regardless of how much money it was, the deal couldn't be that bad and will wind up favorable no matter what. You at least have to give yourself a chance to match whatever would be offered to him.

And the 2016 cap increase looms over the whole thing. As much as people wanna crap on MCW, he was literally the only known commodity on the entire team. A hard working, defensive point guard with great passing skills who's only begun to get into his prime. You could sell that to potential free agents. Now they're going to have to make their big dive into free agency next year with a bunch of guys in their first season. No matter how good rookies are, 95% of them don't look all that great their rookie year. So it's looking like 2017 may be the earliest season that they have a chance of doing anything really. All this can be proven moot by signings/trades this off season but I don't see the potential guys that will go there. But I also didn't see about 75% of the deals that happened at this years deadline coming so maybe they have something up their sleeves.

On another note, I think that 1st round picks have become WAY overvalued. It's great that sixers are getting all these picks but almost all of them are going to fall in the 20-30 range which has a small chance of landing an impact player. It's not just the sixers though, so many other teams are trading solid assets for protected picks that the team might not ever even get. I think the NBA has swung wayyyy too far in that direction and it's due for a correction with smart teams trading their late picks for players that provide immediate value. For example the Portland trade to get Afflalo. Afllalo's one of the best SG's in the NBA and they got him for cap fodder and something like the 25th pick. I'd make that deal 10 out of 10 times.

 

[NickleDimer]

Originally posted by gldendog:
He's started 38 games. Team has played 53. Team is 2-13 in games he doesn't start. Sorry I was way off from the 2-15. Carry on.

STEEER-IKE TWO. You and numbers don't agree. MCW has played 41 games, never less than 20 minutes, which was last week when Kyrie Irving b*tch slapped him to the bench. They are 1-11 without him. Of those 12 games, Wroten also missed 4 of them. Wroten doesn't play defense and turns the ball over just as much as MCW - most of Wroten's turnovers land in the 5th row though. Wroten gets to the rim at will and is just as much of a crappy shooter as MCW.

 

[gldendog]

Originally posted by NickleDimer:

Originally posted by gldendog:
He's started 38 games. Team has played 53. Team is 2-13 in games he doesn't start. Sorry I was way off from the 2-15. Carry on.

STEEER-IKE TWO. You and numbers don't agree. MCW has played 41 games, never less than 20 minutes, which was last week when Kyrie Irving b*tch slapped him to the bench. They are 1-11 without him. Of those 12 games, Wroten also missed 4 of them. Wroten doesn't play defense and turns the ball over just as much as MCW - most of Wroten's turnovers land in the 5th row though. Wroten gets to the rim at will and is just as much of a crappy shooter as MCW.

I said started, not played in, he was being nursed along off the bench his first 3 games back. 1-11 without really helped make your point though.

I wasnt the one who started this ridiculous comparison. Not even sure what you're arguing here - they both suck? I know full well Wroten doesnt play any damn defense. I already said that. He does nothing well whatsoever besides attack the rim. MCW does many things well, they're listed above. The comparison is stupid.

 

[LizReed]

I don't watch the NBA, but I'm fascinated by this Sixers thing. Just asking questions here:

If MCW is not actually that good, then Hinkie is brilliant for getting another 1st round pick for him (which could, most likely, at best, turn into another MCW-caliber player). Or do doubts creep in about Hinkie's ability to judge talent? Yes, one player is a small sample size and I realize that 3 of his draft picks haven't really played all that much yet (or not at all) in the NBA.

 

[adp98]

Thanks for clarifying. As for the first round draft picks: they are only being over-valued by Burrs. Everyone knows once each draft has a handful of impact players, like maybe 4 or 5. Even top 10 picks are a crap shoot. It's always been that way even if Burrs doesn't want to admit as much. This is not the NFL. You're lucky if you get one or two stars in a given draft and late lottery into the teens and on you're just trying to hit a rotation player. Obviously there are always guys who out-perform their draft slot. However, these picks at 15 and 18 etc....aren't netting you difference makers. Let's be real here. If you're lucky you get a starter. If you do your job you're at least getting a rotation guy. There's a decent chance the guy won't be doing anything or out of the league in 5 years. That's just the nature of the NBA draft. Let's not get it confused here.

 

[wcburrs87]

No one is over-valuing them, but the more you have the better the chance you have of hitting on one of them. Also, no one is saying you have to strike gold on every single one of them. You totally dismiss finding starters or rotation players. There is value in that. I get that not all of them will pan out. Hinkie has said so himself countless times. Now, concerning this draft I happen to believe that it is deeper than some people think. And if your savvy enough, then you can find some guys outside of the top 6-7 that can be good players in this league. You can disagree if you want.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:
No one is over-valuing them, but the more you have the better the chance you have of hitting on one of them. Also, no one is saying you have to strike gold on every single one of them. You totally dismiss finding starters or rotation players.

Apparently Hinkie dismisses them too though. You can say what you want about MCW, I'm on board with pretty much most of the knocks on him, but he at the very least, what you just described, and Hinkie just punted him.

I agree with your premise, but I agree more with you that sooner or later you have to create a standing team, even if you are not 100% sold on every single part when they are 21 years old.

This post was edited on 2/20 7:19 AM by Ninetynine5.0

 

[adp98]

Burrs, No one is arguing you cannot get good players. However, the history of the draft simply tells you the odds of getting a stud at any pick are very slim and sometimes none in any given draft. The odds of getting a starter are a little better but that's even 50-50 in the top ten. As you slide down the board the odds decrease. You're not going to build a team with draft picks from 10-30. You might have 3 first rounders and end up with nothing. I'm simply raising what the odds are in regards to the NBA draft. It's not the NFL. This past draft was supposed to be the best in a decade. We might not get 7 starters out of the entire draft. That's just the NBA draft. By stockpiling so many picks he's simply raising his odds.

 

[selmore1]

Yea, but he's not even keeping the guys when he nails the picks and gets great value. Just having a hard time understanding the whole process he's going for but maybe it will become clear eventually.

 

[NickleDimer]

Originally posted by gldendog:

MCW does many things well, they're listed above.

Is a top-5 protected pick the best that you can get for a player that "does many things well"? They basically traded him for the same level pick that they drafted him at. They would rather take their chances with a random 19 year old. I like that you dismiss Wroten's ability to get to the rim like it's not important in today's NBA.

 

[BettyHester]

yeah gdog you and that deadspin guy understand basketball better than hinkie. maybe you can link video of angelo cataldi throwing his own feces next

carter-williams blows. wouldn't have minded if he'd been traded for a top-20 protected pick, honestly

 

[NorCalVU10]

Hinkie sold high on a guy that is bench player on over half the teams in the league. Given the talent at PG in the NBA today, you need a stud to be elite (or have Lebron James). As great as MCW's defensive abilities may be, he had severely inflated offensive stats due to the style of play, and any advance metric shows his true worth. No issue in Hinkie essentially taking another crack at it.

KJ is on a one year deal- not a bad trade.

The Milwaukee bucks lost yesterday. Why move knight?

I assume Dragic made a handshake agreement to resign with the Heat--which is as good as signing a contract, cause if you screw pat riley I just imagine a freak car accident in Slovenia in the off season killing you or your brother Zoran.

It would be a bummer if Bosh's health issue is serious-I've always found him to be a good dude.

 

[NickleDimer]

Carter williams doesn't blow. They just realized that it's not worth letting him hang around for another 2 years, rack up hollow stats and have to pay him $80 million to stick around for the real rebuilding (not this fake extended tanking rebuilding).

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by NickleDimer:
Carter williams doesn't blow. They just realized that it's not worth letting him hang around for another 2 years, rack up hollow stats and have to pay him $80 million to stick around for the real rebuilding (not this fake extended tanking rebuilding).

So is Nerlens next?

 

[NorCalVU10]

MCW starts on maybe 10 teams in the league. The PG depth and talent is ridiculous in today's NBA. Hinkie sold high on a guy who was able to inflate his offensive stats playing on a terrible team. Any advanced offensive metric crushes him. He has defensive upside given his length, but there are plenty of guys with length in the nba.

KJ is on a one year deal. No issue with the deal.

 

[LizReed]

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:

Originally posted by NickleDimer:
Carter williams doesn't blow. They just realized that it's not worth letting him hang around for another 2 years, rack up hollow stats and have to pay him $80 million to stick around for the real rebuilding (not this fake extended tanking rebuilding).

So is Nerlens next?

There aren't any injured big men in this year's draft so I think he'll stay.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by LizReed:

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:

Originally posted by NickleDimer:
Carter williams doesn't blow. They just realized that it's not worth letting him hang around for another 2 years, rack up hollow stats and have to pay him $80 million to stick around for the real rebuilding (not this fake extended tanking rebuilding).

So is Nerlens next?

There aren't any injured big men in this year's draft so I think he'll stay.

Okafor is walking around with a boot today, there is hope I guess.

 

[wcburrs87]

Dmil, fair question about Noel. This is the way I see it. It's really only been one player, MCW, but he can't continue to draft guys, let them play for two years, then trade them for a draft pick. I mean, you just can't do that with everyone, so no reason to think that it will happen with some of the other guys they have or acquire. But I understand why some who are skeptical would think such a thing.

Here's one part of it that really makes me laugh. All the fans and some of the local media people who are complaining today, would also be some of the loudest complaining down the line they gave MCW a 5-yr/70 million contract. You can't have it both ways.

As far a Noel, I think he's the type of player they like and I don't think he's anywhere close to a finished product. He's only played about 70 games between college/NBA. Of course, don't hold me to that

Another point I'd like to make is that people have to slow up on labeling and coming to a final conclusion on young players at such an early stage. Sometimes you're going to have to take a chance and say, this kid will be really god when he's 25, 26, 27 years old. It happens across the league all of the time.

It sounds like Hinkie's presser was entertaining for him. I think he called out Eskin. Saying he says I never talk, I'm here, where is he?

 

[NickleDimer]

Nerlens "baby dalembert" Noel is not untouchable. I would say that Mbah a Moute and Embiid are the only lock for next year's roster.

 

[gldendog]

Originally posted by BettyHester:
yeah gdog you and that deadspin guy understand basketball better than hinkie. maybe you can link video of angelo cataldi throwing his own feces next

carter-williams blows. wouldn't have minded if he'd been traded for a top-20 protected pick, honestly

Right. Right. He "blows" but Exum, Gordon and Vonleh are prized members of the '14 class and sure fire studs!! Tell me more.

You act act like getting good players in the draft outside of the top 10 is some easy process when teams often whiff on guys IN the top 10 even in supposed loaded classes. It's more likely than not you will get a worse player than MCW with the pick he was traded for. Watch and see.

And if MCW "blows" why did Jason Kidd want him to run his emerging, up and coming team?

Look we all know the jumper is suspect but the kid is one of the better defensive and rebounding guards in the entire league and has never had jacksh*t to play with, pass to, or make his job easier offensively.

 

[wcburrs87]

ND, why Mbah a Moute, because he comes from the same country as Embiid? For mentoring purposes? His contract is up.

I will say this. With McDaniels gone I want J. Grant getting more PT. I do like what he has shown so far.

 

[NickleDimer]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:
ND, why Mbah a Moute, because he comes from the same country as Embiid? For mentoring purposes? His contract is up.

I will say this. With McDaniels gone I want J. Grant getting more PT. I do like what he has shown so far.

Yup - Mbah a Moute will be back and it's mutual. No one needs him more than the Sixers/Embiid and he's not going to find another team that will give him more PT than the Sixers. No contenders are out there thinking "Luc Mbah a Moute is the missing piece to this puzzle". That's just my thoughts though. I am almost 100% wrong on every NBA opinion I've ever had though, so don't take it to heart.

 

[wcburrs87]

It's not an outrageous thought. If it helps Embiid get better and fell more comfortable, then I'm ok with it. LMAM at least plays hard and isn't awful.

 

[NickleDimer]

I hope they throw old gimpy Jason Richardson out there for a few games at the end of the season. That would be an amazing. Apparently this week he played full court for the first time since 2013. I've been enjoying this clown show more than i ever thought. It's been like a tasting menu of comically bad hoops - Wroten, Shved, the Turkish guy, waaaay too much Henry Sims, Hollis Thompson. And that's not even getting into Byron Mullens.

 

[NorCalVU10]

Originally posted by gldendog:

Right. Right. He "blows" but Exum, Gordon and Vonleh are prized members of the '14 class and sure fire studs!! Tell me more.

You act act like getting good players in the draft outside of the top 10 is some easy process when teams often whiff on guys IN the top 10 even in supposed loaded classes. It's more likely than not you will get a worse player than MCW with the pick he was traded for. Watch and see.

And if MCW "blows" why did Jason Kidd want him to run his emerging, up and coming team?

Look we all know the jumper is suspect but the kid is one of the better defensive and rebounding guards in the entire league and has never had jacksh*t to play with, pass to, or make his job easier offensively.

Exum is 4 years younger playing his first real competitive basketball. Its not crazy to think he will be better than MCW at 23.
Aaron Gordon will be fine. Hes played in ~20 nba games on a terrible team. Vonleh had surgery in September.

The 2014 draft has a big TBD because of significant injuries. Looking at the top 10, Parker, Randle, Gordon, Vonleh, and Embid have all missed significant time because of injuries (2 haven't even played a game). That's half of the top 10. Smart has been better than expected, Payton has a crazy ceiling, and Staukus at 8 was insane anyways.

 

[D'Nova]

I think MCW stats are inflated vs his peers and his ROY was a bit lucky. He will never be a shooter and that is what Hinkie wants from his guards. KJ too benefited from playing on this team, he never would have gotten near the minutes/stats with another team but at the end of the day he is just a guy in the league. I think the volume of moves will end after this off season and the team will start to take shape. You can love what Hinkie is doing or hate it, but really it'll take 3 years to determine if he was right or wrong. It does allow for some serious debating....This thread would be great to pin for a 2018 re-visit.

 

[wcburrs87]

This thread has mostly been sensational. A lot of wide-ranging, good comments from different posters. Not really a whole lot of arguing. I'm liking this thread. i might even read it again at some point.

 

[gldendog]

Chris Bosh out for year with Jerome Kersey-itis. Good thing they gave up 2 first round picks for Dragic, Right back where they were 2 days ago.

 

[wcburrs87]

Yea, need to amend that they'll probably make the playoffs now. I guess it's back to no better than 50/50.

 

[Tha Butcher]

That sucks for Bosh. Hopefully he can recover.

The heartless bstard in me thinks that should just about lock in the Sixers pick at #15...or maybe even 12-14 range if they somehow miss the playoffs.

 

[matty17]

Originally posted by Tha Butcher:
That sucks for Bosh. Hopefully he can recover.

The heartless bstard in me thinks that should just about lock in the Sixers pick at #15...or maybe even 12-14 range if they somehow miss the playoffs.

Miami will not miss the playoffs regardless especially with the moves they made yesterday. The East is bad and they should certainly beat out Charlotte.


I always liked MCW and appreciated what he brought to the court. But, can anyone tell me he is a top 10 point guard in the NBA? Anyone? Of course, the answer in NO. For those who are pulling their hair out today, get over it. Mulday and Russell have much greater upside if the 76ers choose that route. If they get lucky with the ping pong balls and get Okafor instead, they certainly have enough chips to get into the top 5 again should they choose.

The second move with Denver was a no brainer as they bought a first round pick.

The third move is questionable IMO. McDaniels could certainly turn out to be better than anyone you will get with the 38th pick (right now). But, I suspect Hinkie simply did not value him enough to pay him what his restriction status would have cost.

 

[NickleDimer]

From a professional sports journalist:
"Michael Carter-Williams is not that point guard. He can't shoot, he's not a great passer, and he's not even a very good ball handler. For a team that already had spacing issues, he will likely make things worse. He's one of those players who is better in theory than reality. "

 

[LizReed]

Originally posted by NickleDimer:
From a professional sports journalist:
"Michael Carter-Williams is not that point guard. He can't shoot, he's not a great passer, and he's not even a very good ball handler. For a team that already had spacing issues, he will likely make things worse. He's one of those players who is better in theory than reality. "

Is there concern that the only guy Hinkie has drafted who has played in the NBA isn't that good now?

 

[wcburrs87]

Originally posted by LizReed:

Originally posted by NickleDimer:
From a professional sports journalist:
"Michael Carter-Williams is not that point guard. He can't shoot, he's not a great passer, and he's not even a very good ball handler. For a team that already had spacing issues, he will likely make things worse. He's one of those players who is better in theory than reality. "

Is there concern that the only guy Hinkie has drafted who has played in the NBA isn't that good now?

He drafted Noel, no? He drafted McDaniels and Grant in the 2nd RD, right? No, there is no concern from that perspective. He drafted a guy 11th in a weak draft and he was ROY. Now, he just feels the return he got for MCW was greater than his upside. We'll see if that is correct down the road.

 

[wcburrs87]

Matty, besides Dragic what did MIA add yesterday. So, adding Adriatic and losing Bosh makes the better? Convince me of that, brother. Wade being in and out of the line-up? Not a lock. There are two spots left for 6 teams all within 2 games of each other. Pistons got better with Jsckson. Pacers might get George back. Again, not a lock. The good thing is that the Sixers don't need them to make the playoffs. Just be 11th or worse and stay put when ping-pong balls come thru.

 

[matty17]

Originally posted by wcburrs87:
Matty, besides Dragic what did MIA add yesterday. So, adding Adriatic and losing Bosh makes the better? Convince me of that, brother. Wade being in and out of the line-up? Not a lock. There are two spots left for 6 teams all within 2 games of each other. Pistons got better with Jsckson. Pacers might get George back. Again, not a lock. The good thing is that the Sixers don't need them to make the playoffs. Just be 11th or worse and stay put when ping-pong balls come thru.

Burrs: I meant honestly that I don't see them finishing in the top 10 draft because of how weak the East is. Bosh definitely hurts but Dragic was a clear sign that Riley does not know the meaning of tank and I just see too much pride for them to consistently lose. That is not how Riley thinks.

 

[gldendog]

Hopefully that Wade knee flares up badly and we can push that puppy into the late lottery.