Matty, c'mon man. McGee has absolutely no value and you don't want him within a zip code of Embiid or Noel. The Nuggets just gave away a 1st rounder just to get rid of him. I would be stunned if he's not bought out. Stunned.
Great article on tankadelphia 76ers
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no, obviously they like the lakers pick better than carter-williams
carter-williams was the 11th pick in one of the worst drafts ever. (remember when you said the 2015 draft was going to be one of the worst ever? or are you already pretending you never said that?) i'd say that with hinkie's track record he has a very good chance of picking a better player at a similar position in a better draft. and that's assuming that the lakers improve enough to bypass utah/sacramento/denver next year, or don't end up with a better record than orlando this year.
carter-williams can't make shots from anywhere. that's not something that can be fine-tuned. he's just a very average nba player. delon wright should both be available at that heat pick and become a better nba player than him
in three years the knicks will be on the verge of blowing up the team they are about to build around two non-defending fatasses in melo and okafor
sixers will be, at worst, losing in the first round of the playoffs and on the verge of deciding which of their pieces are worth long-term commitments
McGee was acquired to hit the salary floor which they have to pay anyway. Then next year he is a potentially valuable expiring deal in a trade.
I think this was Hinkie's first lesson as a GM. In the McDaniels situation, he has to learn that if you treat a player like an asset they're going to feel no loyalty towards you. If he truly values certain players, he has to show it to them or they will run away. The fact that it was KJ and not a better player in the future is not as bad as if could be and hopefully prevents it from happening again.
It's the reason Parsons was so willing to leave Houston. They underpaid him for 4 years with one of those absurd contracts. You might save a couple million but you'll lose the guy if he does pan out. Let's hope that becomes a part of his metrics haha
I think this was Hinkie's first lesson as a GM. In the McDaniels situation, he has to learn that if you treat a player like an asset they're going to feel no loyalty towards you. If he truly values certain players, he has to show it to them or they will run away. The fact that it was KJ and not a better player in the future is not as bad as if could be and hopefully prevents it from happening again.
It's the reason Parsons was so willing to leave Houston. They underpaid him for 4 years with one of those absurd contracts. You might save a couple million but you'll lose the guy if he does pan out. Let's hope that becomes a part of his metrics haha
Johnny always thinks the grass is greener. So next years draft is already a good one? Just like last year's was supposed to
be great? How is that turning out? We have no idea how so many of these guys are gonna turn out. Aaron Gordon? Noah Vonleh? Dante Exum? These were top 10 picks in a supposed stellar draft. Didn't you love these cats? Obviously far from sure things.
I'm so sick of people pretending they know what these guys are gonna end up being before they get to the NBA.
be great? How is that turning out? We have no idea how so many of these guys are gonna turn out. Aaron Gordon? Noah Vonleh? Dante Exum? These were top 10 picks in a supposed stellar draft. Didn't you love these cats? Obviously far from sure things.
I'm so sick of people pretending they know what these guys are gonna end up being before they get to the NBA.
Gdog- the more I think about the likely possibilities the more i agree with you. But there's also the chance that things go right. I'd put it at 35% he is able to draft a better player than MCW with that pick. Lots of factors to consider.
The Bucks are one lengthy starting lineup now. Good luck passing through them.
Really don't understand what's going on at this point. Accumulating a ton of assets is great but at this point it's almost at the point of over saturation. They're going to start having to field a team shortly and this set them back again. Even if they hit on all these picks there's not going to be enough money to sing them and they'll be too young to actually go far. I was on board with the tank job to an extent but it's getting out of control now. And next year expiring contracts will have less value than ever because of the increase. Cap space just isn't as important anymore because so many teams have it and all the deals nowadays are so short. Teams aren't locked in for 5-6 years on people it's all 2-4 year deals so no team is ever really killed (besides the Nets of course).
Speaking of the Nets, wanted to provide a quick Billy King update and provide the quamulative result of the Deron Williams, Gerald Wallace, Joe Johnson & KG/Pierce trades:
Still on Team
Joe Johnson (Worst Contract in basketball)
Deron Williams (Top 10 worst contract in basketball)
Thad Young
Traded
Devin Harris
Derrick Favors
2011 #3 Pick Enes Kanter
2012 #6 Pick Damian Lilliard
2013 #21 Pick Gorgui Dieng
2014 #17 Pick James Young
2015 Pick Swap w/ Atlanta
2015 Pick Swap w/ Boston
2016 1st Rounder to Boston
2017 Pick Swap w/ Boston
2017 2nd Rounder to Boston
2018 1st Rounder to Boston
I dare anyone else to come up with a worse run for a GM in NBA history. It'll be tough. I know Kahn will try with the Flynn, Rubio, Lawson, Curry fiasco and the Isaiah era but i think this tops it all. And most likely the worst is still yet to come. Probably the Cleveland GM who traded like 10 straight years of 1st rounders and they had to make a rule named after him is worse but this is close. Basically skirting those rules put in place to protect idiots by doing pick swaps.
Speaking of the Nets, wanted to provide a quick Billy King update and provide the quamulative result of the Deron Williams, Gerald Wallace, Joe Johnson & KG/Pierce trades:
Still on Team
Joe Johnson (Worst Contract in basketball)
Deron Williams (Top 10 worst contract in basketball)
Thad Young
Traded
Devin Harris
Derrick Favors
2011 #3 Pick Enes Kanter
2012 #6 Pick Damian Lilliard
2013 #21 Pick Gorgui Dieng
2014 #17 Pick James Young
2015 Pick Swap w/ Atlanta
2015 Pick Swap w/ Boston
2016 1st Rounder to Boston
2017 Pick Swap w/ Boston
2017 2nd Rounder to Boston
2018 1st Rounder to Boston
I dare anyone else to come up with a worse run for a GM in NBA history. It'll be tough. I know Kahn will try with the Flynn, Rubio, Lawson, Curry fiasco and the Isaiah era but i think this tops it all. And most likely the worst is still yet to come. Probably the Cleveland GM who traded like 10 straight years of 1st rounders and they had to make a rule named after him is worse but this is close. Basically skirting those rules put in place to protect idiots by doing pick swaps.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
It's incredible that Billy King got another GM job.
Are the 76ers owners private equity guys? Makes sense with how they are running the team. Gut it to the bare bones and then put lipstick on that pig. They're not selling good basketball to their fans. They're selling HOPE and a faux intellectual GM.
Are the 76ers owners private equity guys? Makes sense with how they are running the team. Gut it to the bare bones and then put lipstick on that pig. They're not selling good basketball to their fans. They're selling HOPE and a faux intellectual GM.
Exactly. They simply proved they are throwing away the current guys because they didn't love them for more picks. They are essentially playing the odds with additional picks/ping pong balls their odds of getting lucky go up. They bought Noel and Embiid low. They took Saric. That's the core. MCW is not and was sent packing for more picks. Hinkie essentially believes the Lakers pick is an upgrade over the 11th pick in that draft which become MCW. However, let's give him credit for nailing MCW. He got the maximum value at that spot. I completely get what they're doing, the question remains does it work.
Great point by Snottie above on the loyalty factor. At some point you have to build a culture where guys feel bought in. We'll see if the moves pan out. In the meantime, he's the smartest guy in the room because he just bought another two years of job security. Brilliant.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
In addition to not building a locker room culture, you're not building s fan culture. I enjoyed the f&ck out of random mediocre Sixers basketball years where they were at least contenders for a mid-level playoff seed by overpaying gimpy veterans. I think you stunt the growth of your fan base by doing Employing this slash and burn strategy. His first attempt at rebuilding - MCW and Noel- is a bust and he just hit reset on the Xbox. At least he's not paying some fat bum like Ryan Howard.
McGee signing had nothing to do with hitting the salary floor. It was all about the first round pick. The fine for being under the floor is you have to pay the amount you're under to your existing players. One could argue doing it that way would generate significantly greater goodwill amongst the players that just went through a season from hell.
Sixers will have plenty of $ to sign all their guys if they want. Embiid & potentially Saric will only be halfway through their rookie deals when the cap goes up, will have 2/3 full years on their rookie contracts.
I understand the MCW deal but it's a dangerous move. Quite frankly, the Sixers were too good this year compared to the rest of the league. They were, and potentially still are, looking at falling outside of the top 3 worst records in the league. If that happens there's a chance they could be picking outside of the top 5 this year, which would be a disaster. Need a top 3 this year and Lakers to suck one more season with that pick falling into top 10. They'll get the Miami pick this year but that will be closer to 20 than 10 now after their trades and the Thunder pick will be be in that range as well.
If I had to guess I'll say the Sixers pick 4th, 16th, and 19th this year. Sixers marketing team probably wishing they'd waited to do that new campaign until after the deadline.
Sixers will have plenty of $ to sign all their guys if they want. Embiid & potentially Saric will only be halfway through their rookie deals when the cap goes up, will have 2/3 full years on their rookie contracts.
I understand the MCW deal but it's a dangerous move. Quite frankly, the Sixers were too good this year compared to the rest of the league. They were, and potentially still are, looking at falling outside of the top 3 worst records in the league. If that happens there's a chance they could be picking outside of the top 5 this year, which would be a disaster. Need a top 3 this year and Lakers to suck one more season with that pick falling into top 10. They'll get the Miami pick this year but that will be closer to 20 than 10 now after their trades and the Thunder pick will be be in that range as well.
If I had to guess I'll say the Sixers pick 4th, 16th, and 19th this year. Sixers marketing team probably wishing they'd waited to do that new campaign until after the deadline.
Because MCW isn't that good. His value exceeds his ability. Again, think of this as a commodity. That's what Hinkie is doing. MCW wasn't part of the long term plan. They didn't like his game. However, his game had more value than the 11th pick it took to get him last year. So he flipped the 11th pick in a horrible draft for a better pick next year. It makes complete sense if you buy into what Hinkie's doing. That's a separate debate. However, Hinkie's pulling the strings so that's the path the Sixers have chosen.
I love Johnny's assertion that this year's draft crop is gonna be some stellar draft. That's hilarious. LAST year's class was supposed to be among the best of all-time and it's looking like there are gonna be more than a few huge misses in the lottery alone. It's always next year is great....oh next year is great....OMG this guy is a stud you can get him near pick 20....BULLSH*T...it's all bullsh*t....NO ONE KNOWS. Tell me again how much better Dante Exum is than MCW. I cant get enough of that.
I get the whole asset accumulation approach. Based on their recent play, I thought that next year they would start the "advance". Now, who knows? Is one of the guards in the draft going to be better than a year 3 mcw? Maybe, but not likely. So this means they might advance a little next year, but they still might be less than 20 wins. They keep adding years to the timeline.
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In theory I understand what Hinkie is doing, but the problem I have is that I believe it just works on a spreadsheet and not in actual basketball terms. I didn't like tanking, but I at least understood what they were doing up until today. Today, they potentially set themselves back at least another year but most likely 2 and that's only if they find a good replacement. Eventually you have to start actually creating your team. And it's great they're getting all these picks but most of them are 2nd rounders and they still actually have to select good guys with those picks. You don't need a superstar at every position, but a guy like MCW could be the pg on a title contender. In his 2nd year he's already the 2nd best PG when it comes to defensive real plus/minus and while he's 2nd to last in offensive, that's the easier thing to improve upon. And not only did they let MCW, they passed up getting a good pg on one of the best contracts in the league that'll look even better 2 years from now. Thomas might not have been the answer long term but you don't know unless you try something. But I guess he might have helped them win games this year which others have stated would be devastating towards the plan. If the owners are fully behind him, then more power to him because he's going to be selling hope for a long time. Everything can change is Saric and Embiid become studs, but odds are against that or if one of their next 3 picks (their 2 and lakers) become studs but odds are against that as well. They're going to have to make a deep dive into free agency in order to get to that next level but a lot of teams that are loads better are also going to have max cap space. So it sounds good when you say that a max player will want to come play with a lot of young guys with potential but in reality they're going to want to go to established teams that suddenly have max room.
Summary for my views on a few of the last posts:
Can't judge 2014 rookies because 3 of the top 7 have been out for the season. And Wiggins is on pace for future Hall of Famer if he continues progressing this way and ends up on championship teams.
It's not just about salary floor for McGee. He's a potential expiring contract which Hinkie will need if he is going to trade for a big time player in the next year (need a guy to make salaries match if you are trading young talent/picks for a veteran). If anything, that may have been the most encouraging sign we've seen of a push towards competing. Subtle, but necessary.
MCW isn't a cornerstone. But I agree with everyone in that it couldn't hurt to have him be around next year. He would be a true leader by that point and his positive attitude would give them hope.
Hinkie watches a lot of basketball. He's not just a numbers guy. But i think his ego has blown up just a bit too much for absolutely no justifiable reason. You're still dealing with humans here.
Overall, I don't think they really set themselves that much further back wins wise next year. But I'm also a lot less confident in Hinkie's ability to see all the angles. Before, it was calculated. Seems like right now he's just walking on thinner ice.
Can't judge 2014 rookies because 3 of the top 7 have been out for the season. And Wiggins is on pace for future Hall of Famer if he continues progressing this way and ends up on championship teams.
It's not just about salary floor for McGee. He's a potential expiring contract which Hinkie will need if he is going to trade for a big time player in the next year (need a guy to make salaries match if you are trading young talent/picks for a veteran). If anything, that may have been the most encouraging sign we've seen of a push towards competing. Subtle, but necessary.
MCW isn't a cornerstone. But I agree with everyone in that it couldn't hurt to have him be around next year. He would be a true leader by that point and his positive attitude would give them hope.
Hinkie watches a lot of basketball. He's not just a numbers guy. But i think his ego has blown up just a bit too much for absolutely no justifiable reason. You're still dealing with humans here.
Overall, I don't think they really set themselves that much further back wins wise next year. But I'm also a lot less confident in Hinkie's ability to see all the angles. Before, it was calculated. Seems like right now he's just walking on thinner ice.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
I do enjoy that Hinkie has a portfolio of fake foreign player rights that he can send off in trades like the one with the Nuggets. If he didn't have those, he would need to give up an actual player or cash. Just another shrewd move from the private equity playbook. Know the rules and still your dick in the loopholes.
dude, we don't even know who these players are going to be for the Sixers
how are you going to say that?
Hinkie is taking, by any means you slice it, a pretty big gamble here. Gambling now he gets into the top 4 or 5 in 2015, Gambling the down the road punt on MCW translates into a better player than MCW. Neither of these are out of the question, but they are indeed risks.
I have no idea if what he got back was worth this gamble. Doesnt seem like anyone will for a few years. He's done a masterful job of crating space and time for himself. If he winds up outside the top 5 this year, and watches the Laker pick fall to 12 or so, is the move then only to start throwing picks at team to try and move up?
Again, cap space wont be that scarce a commodity in 2016 - and I am wondering who would want to sign with them knowing how the personnel have turned the prior 3 years. By far the most fascinating case study the sport has seen in a long time.
I have no idea if what he got back was worth this gamble. Doesnt seem like anyone will for a few years. He's done a masterful job of crating space and time for himself. If he winds up outside the top 5 this year, and watches the Laker pick fall to 12 or so, is the move then only to start throwing picks at team to try and move up?
Again, cap space wont be that scarce a commodity in 2016 - and I am wondering who would want to sign with them knowing how the personnel have turned the prior 3 years. By far the most fascinating case study the sport has seen in a long time.
I think Exum and Gordon are coming along as expected. Both of them extremely raw - Exum coming from a place with a very low level of competition. But yeah they aren't guys I'd be exactly ecstatic about if the Sixers had them right now. But, look how bad the 2013 draft seemed last year. Now you have guys like Schroeder, Dieng, Oladipo, Steven Adams, Noel, Rudy Gobert (who is looking like a great defender) all emerging as bonafide players. I still believe in the 2014 crop.
Knicks have been bad forever and will continue to be while Carmelo Anthony is there. He's the forward version of Allen Iverson at the end of his career at this point. Complete joke, and he never even made a conference final. Add him to Dolan and there's very little hope. At least they have more picks than Brooklyn.
Knicks have been bad forever and will continue to be while Carmelo Anthony is there. He's the forward version of Allen Iverson at the end of his career at this point. Complete joke, and he never even made a conference final. Add him to Dolan and there's very little hope. At least they have more picks than Brooklyn.
Exactly Dmil. Before, you could say it was calculated. Now he's doing 50/50 toss ups. Not encouraging.
People certainly talk about them. I think that, regardless, this is how things are going to become for most basketball teams in the future. The old guard will die out. If the Moreys and the Hinkies win just a little bit, the entire nature of the way the sports is managed could change down the line. And then if every team wants a GM who uses the same strategies, what the hell happens then? It's going to be hilarious. Their methods could be a big joke in 10 years or taken as gospel.
Some good comments in this thread. A lot people brought their A game stuff. I like that.
I'm a little torn here. Part of me understands this type of move. Sell MCW at his highest value, especially if you think he's not part of the long-range plan. But like Selmore said, eventually you have to still building your team. What if Embiid becomes the stud? And they draft a really good player in the top 4-5 this year, and he's close to a stud. Then, why can't MCW be your third option? Not bad for a third option, right? I'm not sold on MCW. Maybe, he's just a solid player in this league, or maybe he develops and improves, thus becoming better than just a solid player.
I liked McDaniels, too. Not sure if their was a dynamic in play here that forced a trade. Maybe, some bad blood from the contract negotiations. Hey, maybe they try to get him back in the offseason.
Reading a lot of comments from many different people. Man, it's from one end of the spectrum (loving it) to the other end (hating it). Understand why people are upset. They feel that the process is starting all over again. I'm not sure that's true. Heard a few insiders suggest that 2016 is the year they make the real moves. Whatever that may be? I guess within FA.
Still, I always come back to this. There eventually has to be an end game in play here. I just don't believe that owners of a professional franchise are going to allow a GM field a team in the lottery every year until they land some mega-star. That's just so low percentage and goes against a lot of the norms in sports. Ultimately, the ascend upward has to begin. They have to know that too many moves like today's with MCW will alienate fans even more than they already are.
I'm little disappointed because I enjoyed watching this team lately. They were mostly competitive and played hard on a nightly basis. Now two of those guys are gone, so who knows what the rest of the year holds. Again, I got the sense that people were beginning to get excited about things. Now, people unable to see a possible bigger picture will just start the bitch-fest, while it gives the doubters from the start even more amo. Oh well, nothing I can do about it except hope that it works out. Again, I have to believe that there is a timetable here. No GM gets more than 5 years without seeing significant improvement. We're coming to the end of year two here, so the wheels will have to get turning sooner or later.
As for the possible picks this is what I think happens with those. The Sixers own pick should without a doubt fall in the top 4 before the ping-pong balls get thrown in the canister. I'm pretty sure they'll acquire the MIA pick and it will either be the 15/16 pick. I can't see them finishing any better than the 7th/8th spot in east. Getting the Lakers pick this year is going to take a lot of luck. I see no way the Lakers catch ORL for 5th worse record (2.5 back). So, for the Sixers to get that pick, then that means two teams from 5th-14th have to have their balls come out in the lottery. Remember they only pull three balls. And something like that could hurt the Sixers pick. So, they'll probably get it next year. I don't think the LAL will be a playoff team in west, but they might sign a guy or two, Kobe could be healthy, Randle back, and a top 4-5 pick from this year. I see that landing in the 10-13 range. I do think there is a 50/50 chance they can get the OKC pick this year because I'm sensing an OKC run over final 29 games. But even they go a very good (22-7), then you would need CLV to go (17-10) or WAS (17-11) for all of them to end with 50 wins and have it come down to tiebreakers.
I'm a little torn here. Part of me understands this type of move. Sell MCW at his highest value, especially if you think he's not part of the long-range plan. But like Selmore said, eventually you have to still building your team. What if Embiid becomes the stud? And they draft a really good player in the top 4-5 this year, and he's close to a stud. Then, why can't MCW be your third option? Not bad for a third option, right? I'm not sold on MCW. Maybe, he's just a solid player in this league, or maybe he develops and improves, thus becoming better than just a solid player.
I liked McDaniels, too. Not sure if their was a dynamic in play here that forced a trade. Maybe, some bad blood from the contract negotiations. Hey, maybe they try to get him back in the offseason.
Reading a lot of comments from many different people. Man, it's from one end of the spectrum (loving it) to the other end (hating it). Understand why people are upset. They feel that the process is starting all over again. I'm not sure that's true. Heard a few insiders suggest that 2016 is the year they make the real moves. Whatever that may be? I guess within FA.
Still, I always come back to this. There eventually has to be an end game in play here. I just don't believe that owners of a professional franchise are going to allow a GM field a team in the lottery every year until they land some mega-star. That's just so low percentage and goes against a lot of the norms in sports. Ultimately, the ascend upward has to begin. They have to know that too many moves like today's with MCW will alienate fans even more than they already are.
I'm little disappointed because I enjoyed watching this team lately. They were mostly competitive and played hard on a nightly basis. Now two of those guys are gone, so who knows what the rest of the year holds. Again, I got the sense that people were beginning to get excited about things. Now, people unable to see a possible bigger picture will just start the bitch-fest, while it gives the doubters from the start even more amo. Oh well, nothing I can do about it except hope that it works out. Again, I have to believe that there is a timetable here. No GM gets more than 5 years without seeing significant improvement. We're coming to the end of year two here, so the wheels will have to get turning sooner or later.
As for the possible picks this is what I think happens with those. The Sixers own pick should without a doubt fall in the top 4 before the ping-pong balls get thrown in the canister. I'm pretty sure they'll acquire the MIA pick and it will either be the 15/16 pick. I can't see them finishing any better than the 7th/8th spot in east. Getting the Lakers pick this year is going to take a lot of luck. I see no way the Lakers catch ORL for 5th worse record (2.5 back). So, for the Sixers to get that pick, then that means two teams from 5th-14th have to have their balls come out in the lottery. Remember they only pull three balls. And something like that could hurt the Sixers pick. So, they'll probably get it next year. I don't think the LAL will be a playoff team in west, but they might sign a guy or two, Kobe could be healthy, Randle back, and a top 4-5 pick from this year. I see that landing in the 10-13 range. I do think there is a 50/50 chance they can get the OKC pick this year because I'm sensing an OKC run over final 29 games. But even they go a very good (22-7), then you would need CLV to go (17-10) or WAS (17-11) for all of them to end with 50 wins and have it come down to tiebreakers.
Deadspin with another Hinkie bashing article just now. They live for that guy.
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NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Not sure why this surprised everyone. They shopped MCW all offseason. And in theory, if they love KJ Daniels for the long haul (they don't really) they could just give him an offer sheet this summer that the Rockets couldn't match. The mystique of NBA ROOKIE OF THE YEAR MCW was completely washed away for me when Tony Wroten, who the Grizz traded for a bag of nickles, was a completely competent stand-in for him early in the year.
So, it was needed for this hatchet piece to be posted again?
Oh yea, actually he didn't trade Holiday for just Noel, he also got another pick which turned out to be Saric. I mean if you're going to write something at least be accurate. I only glanced at some of this, as it started to hurt my head. So, I'm sure there were other nonsensical comments littered throughout.
The Sixers won basically no games with Wroten running the team, like 2-15 or something for the year when he sits and routinely PLASTERED in the games. Surely they arent world-beaters with MCW running the show but they WERE definitely better and surely more competitive in defeat. Let's not pretend these guys are even comparable. MCW is a ++ defender and rebounder from the guard position.
I am petrified that we more than likely just traded a good, useful player and piece for what will likely be the 10th-12th or so pick in 2016. That should scare any Sixer fan. They were lucky enough to land a good player like him with the 11th pick the first time, now they're gonna attempt to do BETTER??? You wont sell me on the logic to this.
This post was edited on 2/19 11:08 PM by gldendog
I think the risk of this Lakers' pick turning into something blah is a reasonable concern. You could make the case that just taking PHO's pick this year might be worth more if you feel this year's draft is going to be deeper than next year's. PHO probably won't make the playoffs and therefore you could of had the 14th pick, right?
I thought Wroten was starting to play better right before getting hurt. Not saying that means anything in the long run.
I thought Wroten was starting to play better right before getting hurt. Not saying that means anything in the long run.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Gr8 analysis, slugger. In the SIX games that Carter-Williams missed to start the year, the Sixers went 2-15.
rumors that Chris Bosh may have a pulmonary embolism which would likely end his career
damn. hope that isn't true.
damn. hope that isn't true.
Burrs, are picks based on where you finish the regular season or playoffs? I thought it was playoffs. If so, the Miami pick could be much later than 15 as could the OKC pick. Both teams got a lot better and could win a few playoff series. Especially Miami in the East.
