I can do the math based on your graduation year. I just find it funny that you're claiming none of the bosrd members were old enough to evaluate these Bulls teams, but that you as a sophmore in high school could. LeBron has had a fantastic career; easily has the potential to exceed MJ. He's a more skilled all around player and incredibly smart. Time will tell if he can deliver the championships over the next 5 years.
NBA Playoffs
- Thread starter NovaHoops2002
- Start date
No one has blasted Jordan. I'm sorry if you don't like to remember the first 7 years as you swing from nuts. I'm simply providing balance. We all remember the winning later in his career. However, some seem to forget he lost a ton early on. He won when his teammates got better and learned to share the ball. That's a fair and accurate statement. Sorry that you were ten at the time and this dispels the romance you recall along with the Jordan posters hanging in your room. I have never once uttered anything about him not beating great teams in era. You continue to make stuff up to t some fantasy you have with Jordan it's a little weird. The guy was a basketball player. That's it
Dan, let's be accurate here: I said don't remember because they were 10. That's a true statement. Burrs is probably mid 30's, he wasn't wearing deodorant when the pistons and celtics were bouncing Jordan early in the playoffs every year. Let's be fair here.
Jordan by age:
27: Ring
28: Ring
29: Ring
30: Baseball
31: Baseball/Joins team final month
32: Order Restored - Ring
33: Ring
34: Ring
35: Retired
Jordan could have easily won 8 straight, maybe nine. In his prime he dominated and won every year he played a full season. And he didn't go searching for the help.
27: Ring
28: Ring
29: Ring
30: Baseball
31: Baseball/Joins team final month
32: Order Restored - Ring
33: Ring
34: Ring
35: Retired
Jordan could have easily won 8 straight, maybe nine. In his prime he dominated and won every year he played a full season. And he didn't go searching for the help.
A couple of more points.....
One, I never owned a Jordan poster. Never.
Two, you reference Jorfan losing a lot early. So what? Who hasn't? Plus, in '89 with that blah roster they were underdogs to CLV in RD 1. That was a very good CLV team. Jordan on the road poured in 44 points on 17-32 shooting. Craig Hodges played 42 minutes that game. Pippen was 4-14 from the field. And the bench scored all of six points. That was "The Shot" game. Yea, they went into to lose to DET in the conference finals in six. Those were the only two losses DET had throughout the playoffs.
Do you know that only three players have ever led the league in scoring and won a title in same year? Shaq and Mikan did it once each. Jordan did it six times.
One, I never owned a Jordan poster. Never.
Two, you reference Jorfan losing a lot early. So what? Who hasn't? Plus, in '89 with that blah roster they were underdogs to CLV in RD 1. That was a very good CLV team. Jordan on the road poured in 44 points on 17-32 shooting. Craig Hodges played 42 minutes that game. Pippen was 4-14 from the field. And the bench scored all of six points. That was "The Shot" game. Yea, they went into to lose to DET in the conference finals in six. Those were the only two losses DET had throughout the playoffs.
Do you know that only three players have ever led the league in scoring and won a title in same year? Shaq and Mikan did it once each. Jordan did it six times.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
1. Let's address this:
Pippen and Ho Grant. Two studs. WAY better than Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as sidekicks.
2.
Pippen and Ho Grant. Two studs. WAY better than Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden as sidekicks.
2.
Yes Jordan lost a lot early in his career but there was a very linear progression to the Bulls' success.
For starters, the Bulls had made the playoffs only once in 7 years before Jordan arrived in 1985. He averaged 28.2 per game and they lost to a decent Milwaukee team in the first round his rookie year that featured Paul Pressey, Sidney Moncrief and Terry Cummings.
1986: Jordan misses 64 games of the regular season due to a foot injury but comes back for the playoffs. The Bulls lose 3-0 in the first round to the eventual champion Celtics; however Jordan does have a highlight game of 63 points in a double-OT loss.
1987: Bulls lose again in the first round to the eventual Eastern conference champion Celtics. Jordan averages 35.7 per game against a team that has Larry Bird in his prime and 4 other double-digit scoring starters.
1988: The Pistons are on the rise and make the NBA finals for the first time, beating Chicago in the semifinals and the Celtics in the finals. Jordan pours in 45.2 ppg vs. Cleveland but Detroit holds him to 27.4 with their bullying defense.
1989: Jordan again victimizes Cleveland in the playoffs, hitting his memorable game-winner over Craig Ehlo while averaging 35.7 ppg; the Bulls also win a tough series against the Knicks in which Jordan averages 38.9 ppg. Detroit acquires Mark Aguirre from Dallas and improves to win their first NBA championship, beating the Bulls in the Eastern conference finals 4-2. The Detroit Bad Boys are in full effect, holding Jordan once again under 30 ppg and sending him to the free throw line 79 times in 6 games (he made 76%).
1990: Phil Jackson is in at coach and the Bulls have their best regular season in franchise history, winning 55 games. 5 starters average double figures in scoring. They roll through the Bucks (3-1) and the 76ers (4-1) before again meeting up with Detroit in the conference finals. This time the Bulls lose in 7 games despite Jordan's average line of 32.1 ppg / 7.1 rpg / 6.3 apg. The Pistons repeat as champions.
For starters, the Bulls had made the playoffs only once in 7 years before Jordan arrived in 1985. He averaged 28.2 per game and they lost to a decent Milwaukee team in the first round his rookie year that featured Paul Pressey, Sidney Moncrief and Terry Cummings.
1986: Jordan misses 64 games of the regular season due to a foot injury but comes back for the playoffs. The Bulls lose 3-0 in the first round to the eventual champion Celtics; however Jordan does have a highlight game of 63 points in a double-OT loss.
1987: Bulls lose again in the first round to the eventual Eastern conference champion Celtics. Jordan averages 35.7 per game against a team that has Larry Bird in his prime and 4 other double-digit scoring starters.
1988: The Pistons are on the rise and make the NBA finals for the first time, beating Chicago in the semifinals and the Celtics in the finals. Jordan pours in 45.2 ppg vs. Cleveland but Detroit holds him to 27.4 with their bullying defense.
1989: Jordan again victimizes Cleveland in the playoffs, hitting his memorable game-winner over Craig Ehlo while averaging 35.7 ppg; the Bulls also win a tough series against the Knicks in which Jordan averages 38.9 ppg. Detroit acquires Mark Aguirre from Dallas and improves to win their first NBA championship, beating the Bulls in the Eastern conference finals 4-2. The Detroit Bad Boys are in full effect, holding Jordan once again under 30 ppg and sending him to the free throw line 79 times in 6 games (he made 76%).
1990: Phil Jackson is in at coach and the Bulls have their best regular season in franchise history, winning 55 games. 5 starters average double figures in scoring. They roll through the Bucks (3-1) and the 76ers (4-1) before again meeting up with Detroit in the conference finals. This time the Bulls lose in 7 games despite Jordan's average line of 32.1 ppg / 7.1 rpg / 6.3 apg. The Pistons repeat as champions.
easy on Craig Ehlo. Larry Nance took the blame as he switched off Jordan when he was supposed to double team him.
the 2007 Cavs were awful. Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, and Ira Newble played meaningful minutes. easily the worst supporting cast in any Finals ever.
the 2007 Cavs were awful. Sasha Pavlovic, Damon Jones, and Ira Newble played meaningful minutes. easily the worst supporting cast in any Finals ever.
No one addresses my point that Jordan's titles all came in a time of league expansion?
As for the first 3's supporting cast being weak - as great as Rodman was on D and the boards, I think the fact that Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright could both contribute on both sides of the ball makes them nearly on the same level as Rodman and Longley.
Ron Harper was a huge upgrade though - guy averaged 20,6 and 6. Kerr was unfair from the college 3 point line
As for the first 3's supporting cast being weak - as great as Rodman was on D and the boards, I think the fact that Horace Grant and Bill Cartwright could both contribute on both sides of the ball makes them nearly on the same level as Rodman and Longley.
Ron Harper was a huge upgrade though - guy averaged 20,6 and 6. Kerr was unfair from the college 3 point line
From 87-94 for Cleveland and the Clippers Ron Harper was a monster. Best seasons was 1990 probably - he averaged 22.8 points, 5.9 rbs, 5.2 ast, 2.3 stls, 1.2 blks.
In his last season before joining Chicago he averaged 20.1 points, 6.1 rbs, 4.6 asts, 1.9 stls, 0.7 blks. Obviously those numbers dropped when he joined Chicago, but so did Bosh's (to a lesser extent) when he joined LeBron. Harper was a great player.
As for Kerr not hitting many 3s in playoffs, that is surprising but I am wrong on him taking advantage of the college line in playoffs. He shot 52.4%, 51.5% and 46.4% from 3 those seasons though.
In his last season before joining Chicago he averaged 20.1 points, 6.1 rbs, 4.6 asts, 1.9 stls, 0.7 blks. Obviously those numbers dropped when he joined Chicago, but so did Bosh's (to a lesser extent) when he joined LeBron. Harper was a great player.
As for Kerr not hitting many 3s in playoffs, that is surprising but I am wrong on him taking advantage of the college line in playoffs. He shot 52.4%, 51.5% and 46.4% from 3 those seasons though.
Par for the course for the series. Cavs win first 3 quarters and fall apart in 4th. As of writing this theyre up 4 with 27 left
Matthew F'n Dellavadova. This guy. Mr. Intangibles. Basically the anti-Nick Young.
If I'm a Cavs fan - Shumpert and JR Smith make me nervous with their awful decision making late in games. Both have sh*t for brains. If Lebron pulls this off...man this is nuts. Playing with a bunch of clowns and no bench whatsoever.
If I'm a Cavs fan - Shumpert and JR Smith make me nervous with their awful decision making late in games. Both have sh*t for brains. If Lebron pulls this off...man this is nuts. Playing with a bunch of clowns and no bench whatsoever.
The Bulls weren't going to win any titles during Jordan's early years. Those Celtic and Laker teams were among the greatest ever to step on a basketball court. Detroit wasn't at that level, but they were clearly the best team in the league when they won their titles. The Bulls had to build up to a high level to be able to get past those teams. The only truly elite team that Lebron has had to face in the east was the 2008 Celtics. Jordan had two powerhouses standing in the way of just reaching the Finals. The Celtics were there the entire time. You also had the Sixers, who were still a force during Jordan's early years, and as they faded, the Pistons rose to replace them.
Cleveland is fortunate in that their role players are guys who can defend. If a team is strong defensively, that can always be counted on. It's a matter of effort, and since so much is at stake, the motivation is there. The question is can they avoid becoming worn down by their lack of a bench.
40, 12 and 8. Not a bad night. Game 4 becomes huge for Golden State. If Lebron can win two more games with this team, this goes down as the greatest single run by a player in history. No one will have accomplished more with less and the entire GOAT debate takes a dramatic swing in Lebron's favor. Long way to go here but it cannot be understated what winning with this team does for Lebron's place in NBA history.
If CLV pulls this off then we can add it James' accomplishments and see how much closer he gets to Jordan. I'm starting to believe it has a reasonable chance of happening. The Cavs are controlling tempo, defending tremendously, and have the best player in the world. Thru three games this isn't the GS team we saw in the RS. CLV is a big reason he. Maybe the stage is too big for them to soon? Not sure really.
James brilliance goes without saying, but anyone who is watching these games and fails to see the contributions of his teammates is just to locked into the James doing it with trash agenda. For starters, the entire team has bought in defensively. Every single one of them. Next, how many extra possessions has T. Thompson given his team? He and Mozgov have outplayed GS's front court. Fact. Take away Curry's 4th QT barrage and Delly has outplayed the MVP. Friggin amazing. Even Smith and James Jones hit key shots last night..
I do think GS might have found something last night in the 4th QT, but sometimes what you see is what you get. And CLV has controlled most of the series so far.
Bogut is giving them little. Barnes has been awful. Green might be nicked up, but he's been a non-factor and zeroes are coming off that next contract. Curry uneven at best. Thompson slightly better but only because of game 2. Igoudala might be their best both ends player right now.
James brilliance goes without saying, but anyone who is watching these games and fails to see the contributions of his teammates is just to locked into the James doing it with trash agenda. For starters, the entire team has bought in defensively. Every single one of them. Next, how many extra possessions has T. Thompson given his team? He and Mozgov have outplayed GS's front court. Fact. Take away Curry's 4th QT barrage and Delly has outplayed the MVP. Friggin amazing. Even Smith and James Jones hit key shots last night..
I do think GS might have found something last night in the 4th QT, but sometimes what you see is what you get. And CLV has controlled most of the series so far.
Bogut is giving them little. Barnes has been awful. Green might be nicked up, but he's been a non-factor and zeroes are coming off that next contract. Curry uneven at best. Thompson slightly better but only because of game 2. Igoudala might be their best both ends player right now.
Burrs, you realize how silly you look at this point? 5 guys are on the court so obviously one man cannot do it. The fact you've got Lebron doing this with two Knicks cast off, a Denver cast off, an undrafted FA, a Nuggets cast off and Tristen Thompson is simply amazing. Remember how you argued that Jordan demanded excellence from his teammates. Same thing here. The exception being Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Kerr, Tony Kukoc, Horace Grant, Ron Harper etc...aren't walking through that door. At this point Matthew D is their second scoring option. The guy was an undrafted FA for crying out loud.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
I can't help but think that if Love and Irving were healthy it would have played right into the Warriors hands. This team couldn't defend a thing with those 2 in the lineup. Not saying they are a better team without them, but against these Warriors, it forces them to play a style that gives them a much better chance. The formula is remarkably simple when you have Lebron. Just slow the game down and limit turnovers. The fourth quarter was on of the first times this series where the Warriors were able to get turnovers (they had 7 in the first 6 or so minutes, compared to 7 the rest of the game), and look what happened. I'm with gdog here.
Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes have been awful on offense. Neither can hit a shot from deep, thus they have just been barreling to the basket with the hopes of getting fouled. Meanwhile they are both getting crushed on the boards. We are going to see a lot more Lee and Speights because they can do a lot of things out of the pick and roll with curry.
Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes have been awful on offense. Neither can hit a shot from deep, thus they have just been barreling to the basket with the hopes of getting fouled. Meanwhile they are both getting crushed on the boards. We are going to see a lot more Lee and Speights because they can do a lot of things out of the pick and roll with curry.
Technically three Knicks cast offs - Mosgov is a former Knick. Again, this is a lottery team a year ago (and a year from now if Lebron didnt play for whatever reason)
Some of the shots Curry made last night in the 4th could be a good sign for him.
the only thing Curry found in the fourth quarter was Shumpert guarding him. Delly was cramping up and they took him off Curry. not a coincidence.
Warriors were down 2-1 to the Grizzlies too. Series not over yet - but the Cavs should be up 3-0.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
I don't look silly at all. There isn't a NBA analyst out there, who after reading what I just wrote that would say, man that guy has no idea what he is talking about. Not a single one. Now, a novice like yourself, who only wants to jam it's James and trash agenda down people's throats? Well, that's a different story....
James has been brilliant and yes he's leading and demanding them. I completely agree. As he should when discussed amongst the greats of all time. It comes with the territory.
It's not anykind of remarkable revelation that James' fingerprints has to be all over this series for CLV to stand a chance. Do you want a trophy for acknowledging as much?
The things I'm pointing out lie in the unexpected side of things. Though CLVs defense had been good in the playoffs, no one expected them to be doing this, to this team. No one. It deserves to be talked about.
Regardless of who the supporting cast is, where they came from, or how they got there, they still have to go out and perform. Are you watching the games?
Tell me right now that Thompson/Mozgov haven't outperformed GS's entire frontcourt. Please, answer this. Tell me that Dellacedova hasn't outplayed Curry in the last two games. Who cares if he's an UDFA? Is he not out there doing it?
Thompson is a young player who was the 4th pick in the draft, maybe he's coming into his own as an elite rebounder/interior defender? Double-digit rebounds every game. Many off the offensive end. Many go down as team rebounds because he didn't secure the ball but was fouled. Really? And you say you're watching the games?
They traded two 1st RD picks for Mozgov. Why? Because Versjao got hurt and they needed that type of presence. There is value there. He's outplayed Bogut, correct?
Is James sprinkling magic fairy dust on these guys? Or are they actually going out and doing it?
James is praising his teammates at every turn, but a novice NBA fan like yourself can't give credit? Strange.
I don't need you to explain Janes' greatness. I've known it has existed for many years now. It goes without saying. Really that's the easy part to analyze when looking at this series.
Novice, that's silly. You're continued to be proven wrong with each game. Just sit back and enjoy what James is doing. He's elevating all these spar parts. They are all playing great led by a virtuoso performance which if he brings this title home will go down in history. Enjoy it. I've forgotten more about hoops so save it.
adp and burrs, you guys agree on way more points in this thread than you differ on. Leave it at that. No need to keep rehashing the same stuff. And neither one of you are going to convince the other that one is more of an expert, so stop trying. Or I will send both of you to your room with no dinner and no internet privileges!
I will say this, but Lebron with normal players around him is much better to watch than LeBron with other stars around him. It forces him to be out front for 48 minutes. Instead of deferring or periodically stepping to the side for others. He is a better player when it's him and nothing else all that special. I really believe that this CLV team wouldn't be as successful if Irving/Love we're come tell healthy. I know it defies logic, but we seen it before.,
Not sure why he gets upset when I acknowledge parts of the game other than the same tired James & Trash narrative. Not hard to see. Just watch the games.
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We'll keep going until Nardi runs out of. Good popcorn pics. Burrs and I agree. I'm just exposing his anti-lebron, Jordan fan boy bias. This is amazing stuff we're watching. Matthew D is now the 2nd scoring option on a potential title team. Crazy.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
It's not anti-Lebron. I repeatedly call him the best player in the world and one of the top 5 ever. I think he gets to at least #2, with a chance to pass MJ. He's not there now. Still needs to achieve more. Which is possible. Yes, what he is doing in this run is crazy great, but he's had perplexing moments in the past. And when you're discussing GOAT then they are get brought into the conversation. That's all I ever said. It's not Jordan fan boy bias. Everything I have stated about MJ has been factual.
The second scoring option on CLV is someone different every night. Who knows who will ginger them 16-20 tomorrow night.