State of the Union

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by lowry99:
Most of this is the result of people becoming wealthy because they start very successful businesses. E.g., Zuckerberg starts Facebook, a company that didn't exist before, it's worth tens of billions, he owns most of it. Or Schmidt and Briny (sp) with Google. hundreds of billions. Bill Gates before them. Whatever. They own the equity. They also give a lot to their employees, who are millionaires. That's wealth. This is capitalism.

They give a lot away, but they're supposed to just have it taken from them? Curious what the real solutions are with the problem you're pointing out. Sounds like socialism is the right course for you?

Again, you can clearly see that this discussion is not about blame. It's about where we are now based on statistics. And how this resulted is, at this point, utterly irrelevant. It's like people on the Titanic arguing over the size of the iceberg. Means nothing.

What we are saying is, a very low % now own a high % of the wealth here. Our economy is dependent largely on consumer spending and with current trends being what they are, it's quite likely the vast majority - somewhere north of 80% - wont have much to spend. This is a math problem not a political problem. If you can point to where I called for any policy at all, much less a socialist one, please cut and paste it.

I have not pointed out a solution because I do not have one. Not nearly smart enough. I just keep working like a dog.

This post was edited on 1/20 3:04 PM by Ninetynine5.0

 

[adp98]

DMIL, do these duel-income families in your town have a household income around or above $250K per year? Please answer that specific question.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by adp98:
DMIL, do these duel-income families in your town have a household income around or above $250K per year? Please answer that specific question.

So do, some do not. Some higher, some lower. I have no idea what percentage. There are some very well off people here, and some people that are figuring it out more or less. A neighbor of mine though just got laid off. She didnt have a killer salary, but it was an essential on to their household. There are some of those and some where people are deciding what color S class they want this time around.

 

[Villanova U]

Yawn. Everyone's problem is that they give too much of a damn.

Wealth is unevenly distributed, get used to it.
Income is a poor metric for wealth, so people with high incomes are probably overtaxed. Get used to it.
People who have so much money that they don't know what to do with it probably need to be taxed more, but they have enough influence to make sure that doesn't happen, get used to it.
Many middle class white and grey collar jobs are not coming back, period. Some blue collar jobs are unionized and will stay put, but good luck getting one of those. It's all or nothing out there. Get used to it.

Anybody who thinks our policymakers can really change these things have another thing coming. Pay more attention to local government if you want to hear about people making meaningful change in citizens' lives.

 

[tjc3844]

You're kidding, right, ADP? The people who just want to blame the Republicans and the wealthy have only one plan - continue to blame the Republicans and the wealthy!

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by tjc3844:
You're kidding, right, ADP? The people who just want to blame the Republicans and the wealthy have only one plan - continue to blame the Republicans and the wealthy!

So not true for many people.

 

[adp98]

DMIL but that's part of the problem I have with Obama. He's made it out to be that everyone making $250 K and above per year only have one problem: picking out the next color on their S class. They have been demonized and our lead wants them subject to wealth transfer as a policy. They are "rich". These people are not rich. They are upper-middle class living in high cost areas where the cost to live keeps going up but wages have stagnated or gone down. Which is why you've seen people "fleeing" NJ. Regardless, more of the same to come in his State of the Union on the subject.

 

[tjc3844]

1.) Flat tax. That's funny you would say that since Paul Ryan, just to name one person in a position to do something about it, has been pushing it for years. You're right. Republicans do praise the wealthy. What's wrong with aspiring to be wealthy? It's harder than doling out other people's money for bloated government handouts that actually keep people down.
2.) Keystone. Moving oil via pipelines rather than trucks and trains which is far more dangerous and therefore a greater threat to the environment. CBO estimates there will between 20000 - 40000 jobs created by the pipeline.

 

[RSTRICK30]

Originally posted by tjc3844:

What's wrong with aspiring to be wealthy? .

 

[HereComeTheCats]

Originally posted by tjc3844:

2.) Keystone. Moving oil via pipelines rather than trucks and trains which is far more dangerous and therefore a greater threat to the environment. CBO estimates there will between 20000 - 40000 jobs created by the pipeline.

A pipeline spill this past weekend caused the equivalent of 6 tanker trucks worth of oil to spill into some of the most pristine environment in the US.

http://news.yahoo.com/oil-spills-yellowstone-river-pipeline-leak-182735183.html

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by HereComeTheCats:

Originally posted by tjc3844:

2.) Keystone. Moving oil via pipelines rather than trucks and trains which is far more dangerous and therefore a greater threat to the environment. CBO estimates there will between 20000 - 40000 jobs created by the pipeline.

A pipeline spill this past weekend caused the equivalent of 6 tanker trucks worth of oil to spill into some of the most pristine environment in the US.

We've built more pipeline the last 5 years than we have in a couple decades prior. Even T Boone Pickens acknowledges this.

 

[LGBlue]

Some articles yesterday were focusing on the top 1% soon having more assets than the remaining people in the world.

What these articles fail to point out is that every person in the US is way better off than a giant chunk of the world population. Out of curiosity, I looked it up, and someone with an income of $50K is ahead of 98.1% of the world population. That's right, a person with pretty much an average income is basically a 1.9%-er

It's actually shocking that wages no-skill and low-skill tasks have not
gone down more in light of the global pressures on wages. This is the
real driving force behind wage stagnation, not some sinister plot by some top-hatted monopoly guy.

 

[HereComeTheCats]

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:

Originally posted by HereComeTheCats:

Originally posted by tjc3844:

2.) Keystone. Moving oil via pipelines rather than trucks and trains which is far more dangerous and therefore a greater threat to the environment. CBO estimates there will between 20000 - 40000 jobs created by the pipeline.

A pipeline spill this past weekend caused the equivalent of 6 tanker trucks worth of oil to spill into some of the most pristine environment in the US.

We've built more pipeline the last 5 years than we have in a couple decades prior. Even T Boone Pickens acknowledges this.

I'm not arguing against pipelines, and the recent rise in pipeline construction is no surprise with the rise in domestic natural gas production. I'm pointing out that the environmental impact (or lack thereof) compared to trucking oil isn't a good argument in favor of the Keystone Pipeline. The only thing that makes sense is the economic impact which as pointed out earlier is not as big for the US as suggested by some of its political supporters.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by HereComeTheCats:

Originally posted by Ninetynine5.0:

Originally posted by HereComeTheCats:

Originally posted by tjc3844:

2.) Keystone. Moving oil via pipelines rather than trucks and trains which is far more dangerous and therefore a greater threat to the environment. CBO estimates there will between 20000 - 40000 jobs created by the pipeline.

A pipeline spill this past weekend caused the equivalent of 6 tanker trucks worth of oil to spill into some of the most pristine environment in the US.

We've built more pipeline the last 5 years than we have in a couple decades prior. Even T Boone Pickens acknowledges this.

I'm not arguing against pipelines, and the recent rise in pipeline construction is no surprise with the rise in domestic natural gas production. I'm pointing out that the environmental impact (or lack thereof) compared to trucking oil isn't a good argument in favor of the Keystone Pipeline. The only thing that makes sense is the economic impact which as pointed out earlier is not as big for the US as suggested by some of its political supporters.

We are in agreement. It's a typical partisan talking point that has no real value to you and I, nor the country as a whole. It's a gift to a select few. Nothing more. A big gift at that.

 

[adp98]

Just for the sake of accuracy,Calling it a partisan talking point is intellectually dishonest. Keystone is not a partisan issue as it has Democrat and Republican support. I don't have a view on the subject but wanted to make sure DMIL was not using his liberal talking points to mis-inform the newsgroup.

This post was edited on 1/20 4:18 PM by adp98

 

[catFANatic80]

I think you are missing the point as you are talking wages and the real issue is with assets or ownership of the world's wealth. Big difference there.

Originally posted by LGBlue:
Some articles yesterday were focusing on the top 1% soon having more assets than the remaining people in the world.

What these articles fail to point out is that every person in the US is way better off than a giant chunk of the world population. Out of curiosity, I looked it up, and someone with an income of $50K is ahead of 98.1% of the world population. That's right, a person with pretty much an average income is basically a 1.9%-er

It's actually shocking that wages no-skill and low-skill tasks have not
gone down more in light of the global pressures on wages. This is the
real driving force behind wage stagnation, not some sinister plot by some top-hatted monopoly guy.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by adp98:
Just for the sake of accuracy,Calling it a partisan talking point is intellectually dishonest. Keystone is not a partisan issue as it has Democrat and Republican support. I don't have a view on the subject but wanted to make sure DMIL was not using his liberal talking points to mis-inform the newsgroup.

This post was edited on 1/20 4:18 PM by adp98

If you want to change it to 'political' talking point, that's fine by me. I dislike them all so I have no problem if you want to lump them together. Mea culpa.

I dont think not seeing the benefit of something is a terribly liberal talking point. TransCanada has issued no guarantee that a single drop will be kept for the US. Also, anything not lock steep with either party doesn't make you the other party, as convenient as that may be for you.

 

[adp98]

I don't know enough about the subject, simply pointing out people from both parties support the project. To suggest this is a partisan issue with only partisans supporting the project or saying it creates US Jobs is simply wrong and intellectually dishonest. I'm not arguing the merits of the projects so it don't really care what TransCanada has said because I'm not speaking to the topic.

 

[kjbert]

While everyone was arguing about the Keystone Pipeline, the O&G industry moved on without it and doesn't need it anymore.

I of course will be watching it. Looking forward to it. Just don't think I'll like what I hear.

His plan to do away with stepped up basis on inherited wealth is lunacy. He's now starting to go after inheritances. Which is interesting because he allowed the Unified Credit Amount to rise (and keep rising this year) to 5.43 Million per person.

 

[Doctor_Van]

Obama planning to repeal the tax break on 529 plans. Thanks Obama.

 

[nardibynature123]

Originally posted by kjbert:

I of course will be watching it. Looking forward to it. Just don't think I'll like what I hear.

If you don't like it, don't watch it.

 

[tjc3844]

And your point is? Who said we didn't. Probably have because it's more effective and less of a danger to the environment. Glad you agree, 5.0

 

[tjc3844]

I'm watching it for the Pinocchio ratings not the Neilsen ratings

 

[tjc3844]

 

[LGBlue]

Originally posted by catFANatic80:
I think you are missing the point as you are talking wages and the real issue is with assets or ownership of the world's wealth. Big difference there.

Originally posted by LGBlue:
Some articles yesterday were focusing on the top 1% soon having more assets than the remaining people in the world.

What these articles fail to point out is that every person in the US is way better off than a giant chunk of the world population. Out of curiosity, I looked it up, and someone with an income of $50K is ahead of 98.1% of the world population. That's right, a person with pretty much an average income is basically a 1.9%-er

It's actually shocking that wages no-skill and low-skill tasks have not
gone down more in light of the global pressures on wages. This is the
real driving force behind wage stagnation, not some sinister plot by some top-hatted monopoly guy.

I understood that and do not miss the point. You miss my point, which is that people in the US are almost universally extremely well off in comparison to the rest of the world. Extremely. And since conflating wealth and wages isn't allowed, and wealth is the problem, what do you think of the President's efforts to date, which have attacked ordinary income more so than any accumulated wealth? My guess is that when he raises the capital gains rate that he will propose that ordinary income be included in the determination of when the higher rates kick in, continuing the same pattern. Between Obamacare and his taxation policies he is attacking the middle class and upper middle class and not really hitting the uber-rich bogeyman that he likes to blame for all ills.

 

[LGBlue]

Originally posted by Doctor_Van:
Obama planning to repeal the tax break on 529 plans. Thanks Obama.

None of it is passing and he knows it. He is simply creating 2016 campaign talking points. All of it is middle and upper middle class confiscation for distribution elsewhere - he is working on talking points for politicians who will further his legacy in this regard.

 

[selmore1]

It's really a pretty scary time to be growing and in your early to mid 20s. I make pretty good money for someone my age, btw $80-100k, and I know I'm paying out the ass for benefits and programs that I have no chance of ever receiving. There is a mountain of debt that has to be paid off which keeps getting pushed further and further down the road that my generation is eventually going to have to pay off because it's coming to a head soon and barely anyone will even talk about it. Pension liabilities are bankrupting every state and there's absolutely no solution that can be reached without aggressively attacking the problem but no one will do it because they'll have no chance of getting elected. SS and Medicare have about a 1% chance of being there but we're going to keep paying into it like nothing is wrong there. And I don't care about paying for social programs and the like that help out the less fortunate, I think they're a very good thing. I just can't stand my money going to places where there are clear issues that are just not being addressed and I'm going to wind up paying for even more down the line. One thing that could help to start solving the problem is corporations is corporations started paying a wage representative of cost of living increases and inflation. I know it's not that simple because it will just raise cost of living due to market forces but it's a start. For ex., in NY we'll make more than someone in Philly but the amount is nowhere near proportional to the actual cost of living. I don't know exactly how this can be legislated or even if it should but it could be a good starting point for buoying the middle class.

 

[SnottieDrippen]

Selmore, good post and I agree as someone in their mid 20s that things can be a little scary. Still, you and I are probably in the top 5% at worst of wage earners our age. These problems don't exactly keep me up at night,

As for the mountains of debt eventually having to be paid off - people our age have probably been saying that for the past 50 years. It's just how the world runs.

 

[SnottieDrippen]

As for the SOTU, I didn't watch it, but all I'm seeing is the same old reaction: old white people complaining about the state our country is in. I look at the pictures from tonight and I see a room overwhelmingly full of old white people who make al the decisions for us, then I think about the overwhelmingly old and white population which makes up the private sector's biggest influencers,

Mind boggling how these people are all so upset with what's happening when they have been the ones who have made the decisions which got us to this point. People just need something to complain about I guess, even if it's their own ways of operating

 

[adp98]

Gr8 speech. The wars are over, economy is strong and everything is going to be free. The President likes children and he's the only one who believes each child matters. Big Banks and rich people will provide for all. Go Obama!!! Does anyone believe a word that comes out of his mouth?

 

[selmore1]

Yea, I understand that we're in good shape and better off than most but listening to ADP and DMill got me thinking about how our gov't will define rich in 20 years and it doesn't look good. It would seem as the middle class gets pushed down do will the definition of "rich" and the payments that go with it when most people involved would hardly be classified as rich. Like the go who has 150k in student loans after grad school but makes 150k a year, is he rich? He'll soon be treated that way. And again, I'll gladly pay for social programs, it would just help if they were run with even a hint of efficiency.
In regards to the debt, other generations may have said that (I don't really think that's the case) but at this point it's gotten completely out of control. At least the world relies on us not defaulting which really prevents a lot of problems but as I see it, there are really only 2 ways to go from here. We continue to operate as is and basically make a mockery of modern finance by running a sect that's never due or we have to make cutbacks that at least reasonably lower costs. Option 1 I don't believe is feasible forever and if option 2 terrifying to alotta people, especially those on programs, because how much is enough when we'll realistically not get the debt to 0. Kind of like just doing it for show. Idk, maybe I'm way off, hope someone smarter than me can answer.

Also, one of my strongest beliefs, which may get ridiculed, is I just flat out don't think there are enough jobs/good jobs anymore to support a healthy middle class. The combination of too many people with technology making so many things easier, I don't see where all these jobs are supposed to come from? I know people always bring up that every generation has lost some industry due to tech but my answer to that is nothing like this. It was always people building machines to help people. Now it's a machine building another machine and the machine it built is smarter than people and can learn. We're in a whole new phase of tech where the entire purpose of the era is to cut out human error and rely on automation. Unless a new industry of sorts is invented I can't possibly see where these jobs everyone is talking about are coming from.

 

[obriend1]

Fully agree with Selmore and Snottie on all their points.

I no longer support either side and am greatly concerned about the future of not only our country, but the world. Wu-Tang has it right with CREAM. Cash is our government and dictates all decisions. If our country continues down its current path I believe civil unrest will continue to grow, along with violence, until the point where the government either has to make decisions directly for the people or face revolt.

 

[adp98]

Problem is people don't pay attention. Last night Obama talks about just taking people's inheritance. Now you might sit there and think that's fine, These people didn't work for this money. We already have a death tax, which is a tax on money that was already taxed once. Now Obama just wants to come in and take more and everyone sits there clapping. We've entered a time where our leaders are telling us the American dream is to do as well as you can and then the government taxes you on the those dollars, taxes you when you die and then taxes you again on the wealth transfer to your family. We'll do this because you didn't pay your fair share and people need free community college. Are you serious, that's what the American Dream has become? Divide and conquer, but as the President says now is not a time for politics as the campaigns are over. That's why he came out and gave a campaign speech the ignored the problems in the world (Middle East, see Yemen yesterday) and focused on a bunch of class warfare policies that have no chance of passing. Youngsters, save as much money now as you can. You're really worried then take one night per week and stay home and read a book. Take that money and put it away. Start your IRA, max all your 401K's and do everything in your power to save as much money as you can before you're "rich". Now is the time because once you hit 6 figures you're part of the problem. Once your rich your effective tax rate will be above 35%, which is crazy and something I didn't think was possible. If you're living in NY with all the taxes it will be closer to 45%. You're really worried, save now and buy some property. Build assets while you can. Regardless, all is not lost as we're better shape than everyone else. We simply need to become an educated electorate and force these bozo's to do real things that provide the environment for growth. Government can't do it, people do it. Government just needs to provide the best environment.

I was watching it and my wife who is apolitical couldn't believe it. I pay my nanny $65K per year in after tax dollars. My firm has over 20 employees, over half of which are not partners. Who does Obama thinks provides these jobs and who are those jobs going to? The guy is simply devoid of any reality. This is what happens when you elect a community organizer with no real world experience. However, he's one of the best campaigners I've seen. Somewhere ND just fired up a victory cigar.

 

[LizReed]

Originally posted by adp98:

I pay my nanny $65K per year in after tax dollars.

Life is good.

 

[adp98]

None suggests it's not. However, it's because I took a risk and built my own business. Which employs others and provides a good wage that they have also earned. That's the American Dream. Rising Tide lifts all boats not divide and conquer.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Beauty of the system is that adp thinks one party is better than that other. He's not alone. Like the GoP has found a way to tax no one and run a country and no run super deficits. That they don't hand out free stuff like Part D. They aren't about big gov't when they start huge agencies like Homeland Security and increase the military. Like Bush 41 didn't raise taxes. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.

FACT.

But, we have people convinced that one side is truly not in someone's pocket, and truly looking out for you. Funny.

Cue the 'let me draw this out in crayon for you' speech.





This post was edited on 1/21 8:22 AM by Ninetynine5.0

 

[adp98]

Actually that's not true at all. My hope is we don't pit everyone against each other in a race for votes. Each side in just about every debate has merit. My belief is we'd all want the same opportunities for all but how we arrive might be different. Personally mine entire deal can go away tomorrow and I'll be asking Liz Reed if I can carry his golf bag for lunch money. When you wake up each day knowing that's possible you just hustle as best you can and realize neither party will save you. It's on you to do your best and build in your own safety net. Government cannot do it for you.

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by adp98:
None suggests it's not. However, it's because I took a risk and built my own business. Which employs others and provides a good wage that they have also earned. That's the American Dream. Rising Tide lifts all boats not divide and conquer.

You started our business from scratch on your own? Nice work. How did you come up with that name?

 

[Ninetynine5.0]

Originally posted by adp98:
Actually that's not true at all. My hope is we don't pit everyone against each other in a race for votes. Each side in just about every debate has merit. My belief is we'd all want the same opportunities for all but how we arrive might be different. Personally mine entire deal can go away tomorrow and I'll be asking Liz Reed if I can carry his golf bag for lunch money. When you wake up each day knowing that's possible you just hustle as best you can and realize neither party will save you. It's on you to do your best and build in your own safety net. Government cannot do it for you.

This country has never had any interest in the same opportunity for all. Ever. And it's always taken a lot more than just hard work to become rich. If that was the case than every immigrant day laborer I see would have a beach house, because they are working 10-12 hours a day, usually lifting something heavy, building something big or pushing a heavy machine.

 

[adp98]

Two of my partners left their old firm and couldn't agree on a name. Every circle, monument and DC name was taken. They flipped a coin and the guy who won owned a farm in WV. They used the name of the creek near the farm. I joined them after the fact.