That is not totally correct. The process works if you can draft a Kevin Durant. There has to be a franchise changing type player at the top of the draft within the first few picks. Oklahoma tanked in Seattle and got Durant which was an obvious choice. The 76ers thought they had one in Embid. They still may have if he plays this season. By all accounts, Saric had a very good year in Europe and along with Okafor they now have a few building blocks. This off season will be the first one where we will see IF the process can work. They have at least three first round picks with the first most likely in the top 2. Again, Saric coming over and possibly Embid playing in 2016-17. They have said they intend to (and they must) take a significant step forward this coming. There are no excuses after this off season not to improve pretty significantly.
Sam Hinkie as Sixers GM remembered
- Thread starter AlwaysBanned
- Start date
That is not totally correct. The process works if you can draft a Kevin Durant. There has to be a franchise changing type player at the top of the draft within the first few picks. Oklahoma tanked in Seattle and got Durant which was an obvious choice. The 76ers thought they had one in Embid. They still may have if he plays this season. By all accounts, Saric had a very good year in Europe and along with Okafor they now have a few building blocks. This off season will be the first one where we will see IF the process can work. They have at least three first round picks with the first most likely in the top 2. Again, Saric coming over and possibly Embid playing in 2016-17. They have said they intend to (and they must) take a significant step forward this coming. There are no excuses after this off season not to improve pretty significantly.
I granted you the OKC Thunder. That was a tank job. But go back through the NBA finals of the last decade (I just went through the last 5 finals, posted below). OKC was the only team that got there via tanking, and it worked because they drafted 3 Superstars with top 4 picks.
2015 NBA Finals
Winner:
Golden State Warriors
Key Pieces:
1 Steph Curry - Drafted 2009 Draft (7th overall)
2 Klay Thompson - Drafted 2011 Draft (11th overall)
3 Draymond Green - Drafted 2012 Draft (35th overall)
4 Andre Igoudala - Free Agency July 2013
5 Andrew Bogut - Traded for in March 2012
Verdict: Did not tank
Loser:
Cleveland Cavaliers
Key Pieces:
1 Lebron James - Free Agency July 2014
2 Kyrie Irving (DNP) - Drafted 2011 NBA Draft (1st overall)
3 Trsitan Thompson - Traded for 2014
4 Kevin Love (DNP) - Traded for August 2014
Verdict: Did not tank
2014 NBA Finals
Winner:
San Antonio Spurs
Key Pieces:
1 Kawhi Leonard - Drafted 2011 Draft (15th Overall)
2 Tim Duncan - Drafted 1997 Draft (1st Overall)
3 Tony Parker - Drafted 2001 Draft (28th Overall)
4 Boris Diaw - Free Agency (March 2012)
Verdict: Did not tank
Loser:
Miami Heat
Key Pieces: 1 Lebron James - Free Agency (July 2010)
2 Dwyane Wade - Drafted 2003 Draft (5th Overall)
3 Chris Bosh - Free Agency (July 2010)
4 Ray Allen - Free Agency (July 2012)
Verdict: Did not tank
2013 NBA Finals
Winner:
Miami Heat
Key Pieces:
1 Lebron James - Free Agency (July 2010)
2 Dwyane Wade - Drafted 2003 Draft (5th Overall)
3 Chris Bosh - Free Agency (July 2010)
4 Ray Allen - Free Agency (July 2012)
Verdict: Did not tank
Loser:
San Antonio Spurs
Key Pieces:
1 Kawhi Leonard - Drafted 2011 Draft (15th Overall)
2 Tim Duncan - Drafted 1997 Draft (1st Overall)
3 Tony Parker - Drafted 2001 Draft (28th Overall)
4 Boris Diaw - Free Agency (March 2012)
Verdict: Did not tank
2012 NBA Finals
Winner:
Miami Heat
Key Pieces:
1 Lebron James - Free Agency (July 2010)
2 Dwyane Wade - Drafted 2003 Draft (5th Overall)
3 Chris Bosh - Free Agency (July 2010)
4 Mario Chalmers - Drafted 2008 Draft (35th Overall)
Verdict: Did not tank
Loser:
Oklahoma City Thunder
Key Pieces:
1 Kevin Durant - Drafted 2007 Draft (2nd Overall)
2 Russ Westbrook - Drafted 2008 Draft (4th Overall)
3 James Harden - Drafted 2009 Draft (3rd Overall)
Verdict: Tanked
2011 NBA Finals
Winner:
Dallas Mavericks
Key Pieces:
1 Dirk Nowitzki - Drafted via Trade 1998 (6th Overall)
2 Tyson Chandler - Traded for July 2010
3 Jason Kidd - Traded for February 2008 (re-signed)
4 Jason Terry - Traded for 2004
5 Shawn Marion - Sign and Trade July 2009
Verdict: Did not tank
Loser:
Miami Heat
Key Pieces:
1 Lebron James - Free Agency (July 2010)
2 Dwyane Wade - Drafted 2003 Draft (5th Overall)
3 Chris Bosh - Free Agency (July 2010)
4 Mario Chalmers - Drafted 2008 Draft (35th Overall)
Verdict: Did not tank
You can go back further, but the Lakers and Celtics teams that were dominant in the late 2000's didn't tank to get there either. You can make a case that the Cavs tanked for Lebron, and their current incarnation is based on those failures (I guess?), but that's pretty pointless as he went and won 2 championships elsewhere. You've got a one-time NBA finals runner up to show for tanking. That's about it.
Last edited:
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Plenty of geniuses on here, but not a one who has offered up a viable plan on what they think owner/front office should do. Any front office....
Anyway, the Sixers are undoubtedly in better position today than they were when Hinkie took over. Not debatable.
Anyway, the Sixers are undoubtedly in better position today than they were when Hinkie took over. Not debatable.
Viable plan - try to win. Build a culture of talent development and winning. Stop drafting big men in an age when they don't have value. Get a front office that can turn top 5 picks into actual players.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Viable plan:
Sign Waiters and Wroten, draft injured big men. Lose 82 games, sell 0 tickets. Collect revenue sharing and TV checks. Sell franchise for double the purchase price in a few years.
Sign Waiters and Wroten, draft injured big men. Lose 82 games, sell 0 tickets. Collect revenue sharing and TV checks. Sell franchise for double the purchase price in a few years.
Why give solid Fact!s when you are talking to CoP rubes? (Sorry always banned)
Hinkie's Process fascinates me. During a parallel time period, you can look at at team like the Cubs and see how the Process can go - lose yes, but create an organization that can identify undervalued talent and develop it into productive assets. If you don't do the second part, you become a perennial loser - unable to attract and retain talent that is needed to win. It's a different sport, but if you're going to tank, the second part is more important than the first.
Trying to win will come. Why can't you guys understand that you can't win with a nucleus of Holiday, Young, Turner, no cap space, and no assets.
You make it sound like you snap your fingers and here is 50 wins.
They have drafted two top 5 picks. One hasn't played due to injury. The other is 19. Yea, they should be developed by now. Solid analysis. And big men are important.
Why get involved in a discussion when you like, understand, or care about the NBA? Makes littlest see. Ohhh wait, I forgot about your roll here. My bad.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
What does level of care have to do with anything? That's what CoPers resort to when backed into a corner. " Oh yeah? Well where's your World B Free calf tat?"
So it's not enough time to judge? You agree that the Thunder is the model that you go by, so, given that, by Durant's third season they were in the playoffs, by the fourth they were in the Western Conference finals.
So is this a playoff team next year? The year after? Does the process take so long that you start losing guys to free agency soon? Embiid is an RFA in 2018. Cheap young talent only gets older and more expensive.
The Sixers were a fun, mid 40's win team that had some good parts. Smart drafting, a free agent perhaps, and a nice run and that team could've done something. It's possible they got stuck in that middle of the pack sure, but at least they had pieces of value.
So is this a playoff team next year? The year after? Does the process take so long that you start losing guys to free agency soon? Embiid is an RFA in 2018. Cheap young talent only gets older and more expensive.
The Sixers were a fun, mid 40's win team that had some good parts. Smart drafting, a free agent perhaps, and a nice run and that team could've done something. It's possible they got stuck in that middle of the pack sure, but at least they had pieces of value.
Who is backed into a corner? Hey man, whatever keeps your imagination going. There have been hundreds of topics on this board that I have no interest in, so I feel it's best to stay out of them.
You don't understand the NBA. It's impossible for it to happen overnight. Really, you don't get it. Move on to what you're good at.
Actually, I think Hinkie had more extreme version of the tank. And I get the criticism and many people make solid points in their criticism. I try to be open-minded about this stuff.
Dude, the times of the Sixers being a fun, mid-40's win team were few and far between. They averaged 36 wins for a 9-year stretch and were 35-31 in lockout year prior to Hinkie. They made it to the second RD once and that was because Rose tore his knee up and Noah got hurt. They were going nowhere.
Look, Hinkie is gone. Celebrate and move on. I have already. I hope Bryan Colangelo uses his contacts around the league and the great positioning Hinkie left him to do wonders with this team. At the end of the day I only want them to be viable and I really don't care who is pulling the strings to be honest with you.
I'm not celebrating - I'm not a 4-4er, just a casual NBA fan. 35-31 extrapolates to about 43 wins over an 82 game season. I watched some of those Sixers teams though, and they showed at least something. A few smart draft picks and they could've been competed in a weak eastern conference.
Hinkie's Process and self described disruptor is what fascinated me. I just think his vision ultimately was flawed, and not because it wasn't given enough time.
In the past 25 years, only 9 franchises have won titles, none of them through tanking. There's a reason for that.
Hinkie's Process and self described disruptor is what fascinated me. I just think his vision ultimately was flawed, and not because it wasn't given enough time.
In the past 25 years, only 9 franchises have won titles, none of them through tanking. There's a reason for that.
ADP, have you read either of the articles that I posted? A simple yes or no. Also, could you provide your own description of what ADP would do if you were blessed to run a NBA team. I would very much like to hear your thoughts. Liking someone else's doesn't cut it. Thanks, brother.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
No chance of playing in the NBA finals. So I guess it depends what you consider dividends.
You do understand that the previous front office blew that up when they traded for Bynum, right? So, Hinkie wasn't working with that team.
None of them thru tanking? Wrong? The Spurs created a dynasty via a tank season. Yep, they ended up with arguably a top 7 player ever. Most of the champions had elite, generational type player. Lakers with Shaq/Kobe. Miami conspired to combine the three of the top 4 PER players in the league at the time to join forces.
You need a great player, sometimes multiple great players. The best way to get one is via the draft. Is it a guarantee? No. But along the way maybe you get young guys and an accumulation of picks that might interest some other team. So, possible trades come into the mix. All the while putting yourself in good financial position to have the ability make trades and possibly sign FAs.
Maybe a team like the Bulls want to start over this summer. They approach the Sixers about Okafor and a pick for Jimmy Butler. This is just an example of the kind of stuff that can happen. And if you don't have the assets and space to make it happen then you're on the outside looking in. You know, like the Sixers have been for God knows how long.
The same team dying to get their hands on Okafor. Amazing.....
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
Looking at possibly the 3 seed and they have 8 draft picks coming up including the Nets (slotted at #3 right now).
Everything the Sixers have been doing over these last three years has been pointed toward this off-season. All these #1 picks. Saric comes over. Embiid finally hits court? Does Lakers pick convey? How people can definitively say what he has done won't work, or didn't work, is ridiculous to me. If you are anti-Hinkie your stance has more of a foot to stand on if Embiid can't stay on the court, and the Sixers don't get a top 2 pick this year, and the Lakers pick doesn't convey for another year. Then yes, you are right. If this stuff happens. But to say you are right today when everything they've been pointing toward will start to be realized this offseason, doesn't make sense to me. So as Burrs would like to say...it's too soon to tell. But it won't be for much longer. And that's my only point. We would've have had 99% more clarity on this "plan" this coming season. And now we will never know the end result from the guy who put it in place. That's very unsatisfying for me. You made me wait this long...
Spurs - didn't tank. The Admiral was hurt, and their core aged. Del Negro and Johnson got old quickly that year, and they were just bad without Robinson. Plus, they won a title the next year.
Lakers - acquired Shaq as a free agent because it was a winner,
Lakers - acquired Kobe through a trade in the draft (13th overall)
The Bynum trade stunk - but what they did after it put them in a state of perpetual losing. History has time and time again proven that you can get a championship team with smart drafting, player development, a good coach and front office, and a winning culture. The Lakers, Spurs, etc, all prove that.
And that Butler for Okafor trade is fantasy land stuff, even for you.
Actually, history has proven that you need a generational type talent to win most of the time. But maybe you haven't paid attention.
I didn't say that the Lakers tanked. I said they not one, but two generational type talents in Kobe/Shaq.
And I didn't say Butler for Okafor. I said Okafor/pick/s if a team wanted to blow-up things. CHI is in a state of flux right now and when that happens teams sometimes want to move on. It was an example.
So is Butler the once in a generation talent that you're looking for? I thought it was Okafor...no wait Embiid...no wait Noel...sorry, I'm lost in your logic. If he's the centerpiece, then why wouldn't the Bulls build around him? Are you suggesting the Bulls hire Hinkie and start the Process 2.0.?
And if Butler is the end game in all this, he was there for the taking without tanking. The Bulls got him at 30 in 2011.
And if Butler is the end game in all this, he was there for the taking without tanking. The Bulls got him at 30 in 2011.
NickleDimer
Post 'Til Your Fingers Bleed
The Hinkie admirers are in a great spot...Sixers keep sucking = ownership's fault.....Sixers get good = TheProcess
Dude, I gave an example of the type of deal that could happen when you have young guys, picks, and space. Cmon, follow along.
I never called any of those players generational. What I said is that the best way to find one is in the draft and picking high in the draft.
Ok, I think I am getting it now.
The Sixers got 3 high draft picks to try and draft a once in a generation talent. They are 0-3, but they can now use those mistakes to GET a once in a generational talent that someone will give up willingly. None of those mistakes fall on Hinkie by the way his job was to just get high draft picks, once you get them there's no way to evaluate and develop the right players.
Ok, got it. Who are they going to get? KD? Westbrook? Butler? Lebron? Harden?
The Sixers got 3 high draft picks to try and draft a once in a generation talent. They are 0-3, but they can now use those mistakes to GET a once in a generational talent that someone will give up willingly. None of those mistakes fall on Hinkie by the way his job was to just get high draft picks, once you get them there's no way to evaluate and develop the right players.
Ok, got it. Who are they going to get? KD? Westbrook? Butler? Lebron? Harden?
I have answered this twenty times. And when you state that you are opned-minded, what you mean is open to any lack of accountability to prove your view isn't crazy in spite of all the current evidence.